Israel's destruction of Gaza is known to many now - Yesterday anti-Israeli protesters clashed with riot police outside an Israeli-Swedish Davis Cup tennis match in Sweden.   The congress in the US is much more aware of Israel's harsh tactics now than they were prior to December's invasion.  It is so disgusting that Israeli soldiers get away with such obsense actions.

Charles, as a Veteran of the US Marine Corps, Amira Hass' account is not a description of normal activity of an Army of defense, rather more emblematic of the Ku Klux Klan and the Aryn Brotherhood.  This is not the act of an Army, rather that of uncivilized, undisciplined, inhumane monsters allowed [by their chain-of-command] to run totally amok.

While there is copious evidence of shocking racist behavior on both sides [really all sides] of the Middle Eastern conflict, this is such a sickening instance as to form revulsion in any civilized person.  There can be no acceptable excuse for the wanton destruction, desecration, nor inhuman acts described here as commonplace amongst the Israeli Defense Force in its recent "campaign" in Gaza.

Israel as a nation, the IDF in general, as well as any individuals involved in particular, owes the world and these people an apology, without reservation or excuse.  Those responsible -- all the way from the lowest level enlisted IDF members all the way up their chain-of-command to the top -- SHOULD be prosecuted.

Abuses of this nature DO constitute a war-crime.  The people whose homes [most of them modest or poverty-stricken] have been defiled in this manner can not return to these places.

Perhaps as part of a punishment for these atrocities, those responsible should be tasked with personally demolishing the remains of these homes and then personally [and at their own expense] building new homes for the people who lived in these structures.

While I am not hopeful that my pipe-dream here has any real chance at becoming a reality, those responsible should hang their heads in shame.

Jeremy I look on this as deliberate, not unfortunate. They were deliberately defiling the homes in the most debasing manner possible.

Stephen, you're one of the ones who takes the military "code of honor" and keeps it true and honorable. There is no 'honor code' in the IDF that I can find. I hate to generalize because there MUST be good ones but those seem to be the ones who are refusing to serve.

With all that's going on, and not going on (rebuilding), this is a very dark point in human history. How will our children and grand children judge our actions in historical documents?

God bless Amira Hass and all of her ilk who look for the unbiased truth, no matter which side is shown to be right or wrong.

Dee

The truth from Gaza, how Hamas fires rockets from schools, live video, with explanation in Arabic and English subtitles.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sznMP3dnCg&feature=PlayList&p=24B346594DCE3F37&index=5

If its true, that does mean its PR, and you can not dismiss the truth by claiming it is PR.

The truth is clear for all to see, Hamas is the enemy, not of Israel but of all peace loving people, if Hamas were gone we would have peace with Gaza.

Michael, oh Michael, oh Michael....

We can always rely upon you for obfuscation, distraction with irrelevancy and prevarication, and tunnel vision...


Stephen Burnett

You never seem to get the point, Michael.

In this and you other postings this morning, you keep up the tactics of the authoritarian mindset.

If you would take the time to look to Bertrand Russell's writings as I have suggested several times [especially "Unpopular Essays", (1950) -- for which he won a Nobel Prize], you would find that the "opposite" of liberalism IS NOT conservatism, but rather authoritarianism.  In fact, modern conservatism [not what the Bushies practice -- that is classic authoritarianism] is actually a known and acknowledged branch of liberalism!

Instead of citing actual verifiable facts, you are resorting to "I know this and I am always right; you cannot know or understand this."  When you tell me of your personal experience in the IDF and that of family members, and that only "you and yours" are capable of understanding it, you are arguing from "authority".  A true liberal rejects that out of hand, and seeks the truth in repeatable, verifiable, testable facts.  This demonstrates that you are by no means a liberal person.

Further, responding to direct verifiable evidence such as videotaped scenes by throwing unsupported accusations at an opposing side is both distraction and the authoritarian tactic of propaganda.  That is also not liberal, rather, it's opposite.

Still further, referring to Amira Hass as "a prominent left-wing Israeli journalist and author" is puerile name-calling -- yet another authoritarian strategy.  It is also completely and fundamentally irrelevant.

In many of your posts, you have accused me of being an ignorant dupe of some left-wing conspiracy, or somehow anti-Israeli.  Not only do "you not know me at all" -- something you have PM'ed me to say in your own defense.  Your assertion here is of course completely incorrect, because I DO know your personality type quite well, in fact.  You have this imaginary sense of knowing with undeniable certainty everything of which you speak; this notion that anyone who voices any other opinion is ignorant, wrong, or evil.  This proves that your arguments are specious.

I would refer to your methodology as "faux-liberal" or in the vernacular a "wannabe".  Tolerance of other points of view is a strength and a virtue, not a weakness or a fault; and in this area, Michael, you are sorely lacking.

You refuse to listen critically to what I have said all along.  A true liberal, such as myself is not "left-wing", "right-wing", or any of the other labels you are so fond of dredging up; rather, true liberals have no labels that would fit because we treat every situation as unique and are quite able to come down on any legitimate side of an issue based upon a scientific analysis of the demonstrable facts.

Character assassination, propagandizing, distraction, argument from authority [forced to accept, or "conversion by the sword"] is not civil discourse in any meaningful way and is and must continue to be rejected by freedom-loving people all across the globe.

To a true liberal, argument from authority is discerned as weak to the point of uselessness, and based upon insufficient knowledge of the truth.  One must open up one's eyes in order to see the sun in the sky.

Real peace, in the Middle East, or anywhere else can never come as long as authoritarianism rules on all sides of a conflict.


Stephen Burnett

Steve, I listen but do not agree. For example I could listen all day long to "The Flat Earth Society" and never agree.

The same for many of these discussion, what is the point of creating an opinion that is based on an untrue story or lie?

As a scientist and an engineer I would not form an opinion based on fantasy.

Its like religion, a religious person suspends reason and accepts another persons dictation of reality.

Again, all your boxes do not define a person or reality, reality is to complex to put into boxes, that is why all ideologies have failed, communism, capitalism, liberalism, all of them, because they are models, and models never match 100% of the real world, because they are models and the real world is to complex to model. The scientific world is very far still from modeling the universe, and it may never be able to do so.

I really don't want to get sucked back into beating this dead horse.  All this clever banter is useless.  


First I just want to give a brief explanation of where I am coming from.


I am an old hippie that marched against the Vietnam war, marched for civil rights, women's rights, and gay rights.  Presently I am an animal rights activist.  I have NEVER voted for a Republican for President, well, except Anderson in the primary because I didn't want Reagan ANYWHERE NEAR the White House.  It didn't work.  Guess you could call me a liberal . . . or use to be, huh.



I don't like this "new" breed of liberal.  It is embarrassing.



I look at things simply.  



Seems to me that if the United Arab nations had accepted Israel 60 years ago the region would probably be flourishing in freedom and peace.



Seems to me that that this latest conflict never would have happened if rockets weren't being fired everyday into Israel.. . . . . . . AND if the world had been as outraged at these attacks as they are reacting to Israel's "We told you to stop, now see what we can do, now we are leaving, but we can come back, so STOP!"  


Seems to me that if Arafat, who proclaimed to want the best for his people, would have actually put the welfare of the people ahead of his greed for money (stealing all the money the USA and Israel gave him) and his thirst for power, and Hamas and the other hate filled groups would put the welfair of the people ahead of THEIR demand for the irradication of Israel, then all this death and blame would stop.


But I suppose this is just me.  This thought process is too simple and rational to ACTUALLY work!  



My question is this.  What does Hamas want?  Again simple.  What would make them stop firing rockets into Israel?  What would get them to accept Israel?   Just put it SIMPLY to me in plain English.  What?  There is no need for any elaborite explination, and please, no more pointing fingers, just bottom line, what would make them happy?  All of it.  Everything.  What?  This should NOT be complicated.


They wanted Gaza.  They got Gaza.  Instead of attempting to make any other "deals" with Israel, they set up firing stations to constantly attack Israel day after day after day.  . . . after day . . . .  Is this why they wanted Gaza?  Hummmm . . . And silly me thought, hoped, it was because they wanted a home for their people to have a better life.


Us true liberals are being turned off by the twisting of the history, THAT WE LIVED THROUGH, and the hate that is being unjustly thrown at us.  We are being lost.



You know, one of the signs of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.



And I will sign off with this:  "When your hate is more important than your happiness you are doomed to a life of despair." - McDill

James you seem to omit a simple fact that close to one million Jews were evicted from their homes in 22 Arab countries, with nothing but the clothes on their backs.

If the world was not controlled by Arab oil the Jews would have gotten a fair deal, a piece of land proportional to their numbers in the Middle East. But they ended up short by thousands of square miles.

The boundaries of Palestine, Jordan, Syria and Iraq were all arbitrarily determined by the British, mostly decided by who had more political leverage on the Brits at the time.

You don't have a straw to stand on Appleton.

By your 'scientific reasoning' Hitler was justified in his aggression (revenge) against European countries and Britain because of Germany's loss of territory at the end of  WWI.

In Europe  German had massive territorial losses. All of Germany's overseas colonies were annexed by the Allies, either to become colonies or areas that were managed until independence could be maintained autonomously. In total, Germany lost over one millions square miles of land (28,000 of which had previously formed part of European Germany) and 6 million subjects.

    My scientific education and experience as a researcher, and more recent university studies and research in Middle East and American history,  make me demand logical constructs and facts to bear on the analysis of historical events, their impacts and potential for resolution.

  I find your argument,  requiring innocent Palestinians to submit to confiscation of their land and expulsion from their homes to make reparations for the Holocaust and hundreds of years of European, Arab and other governments rejection and maltreatment of Jews in their countries, seriously lacking rationale justification.

James, seriously how do you come to the conclusion that this land is Palestinian land, their is no Palestine, its a fantasy, created after 1967 to get rid of Israel. All we have are former Jordanians and former Egyptians and they should form a federation on part of these lands with their former countries, Egypt and Jordan.

What claim do they have to this land? Any claim they may have is offset by a similar logical claim one million Jews have to land and property confiscated from them when they lived in Arab countries.

Germany repatriated billions of dollars to the survivors of the Jews they killed and confiscated property from. The Arabs have not given back one cent for the land and property they confiscated from Jews living in Arab countries prior to 1947.

So be fair and logical all the way, please.