A Jewish state is no more racist in theory than a French state. The question is now it gets implemented. All nations deserve the right to self determination and respect for their national identity - including Jews who live by the Mediterranean.

Different people define it differently. The Jewish experience is quite diverse. There are some, for example, who define purely on orthodox religious terms. They consider the Ethiopian and Russian communities as suspect. Others would include anyone who affirms - through behavior or statement - that they see themselves as part of the Jewish people.

I'm sure, for example, that many of the Russian speakers who voted for Lieberman are not Jewish by religious standards - yet the voted for a racist, Jewish-supremacist party.

On the other hand, Druze citizens of Israel who serve in the military will never see themselves as part of the Jewish people, even though they are clearly loyal to the Israeli-Jewish state.

The way different countries deal with the confusing mix of citizenship and nationalisty is really diverse. I remember meeting a citizen of the UK who had brown skin, and was obviously of some South Asian ethnic group. I asked her, where she or her family was from, originally? She got angry and said - I'm English! I got a bit flustered and said.... 'but you don't have bad teeth, don't like Benny Hill, and don't belong to the 'English' ethnic group, which is descended from Angles, Saxons and NOrmans, all of whom have a lighter shade of skin that you.

I look foward to an evolution in which the Israeli state removes the legal distinctions that give Jews certain rights over non Jews, or that discriminate specifically against the Palestinian minority. But doing that wouldn't make Israel any less 'Jewish' because of the story of its founding and the makeup of its ethnic majority.

Another interesting factoid is that the former Soviet Republic of Birobidjan was considered to be 'Jewish' long after the percentage of actual Jews had dwindled down.

Let me add, also and finally, that Fatah (to name one organization) was asked by a member of it's council to open membership to Israeli Jews after it was legalized after the Oslo period. This proposal was reject. Uri Davis made a brave effort to define himself, and anyone else who wished it, as a 'Jewish Palestinian.' This effort rings hollow. In order for there to be a Palestinian nation that is free and independent, non Palestinians (including Jews) must not exert a decisive influence. The opposite is true as well, at least until both sides start to feel differently about the need to be free of the other.

the "jews by the maditeranean" had no right to take someone else's country and displace them out of it. this is the root of the conflict and every argumment that neglects this context is a Zionist one. by doing so, the new Zionist state cancelled this same right you talk about of self determination of another people, the Palestinians, who never agreed ofcourse to giving their land to anyone.

wael.

Aref, I think you are missing the significance of it. There is a Palestinian national movement. It has made a decision to exclude Jews, with some very rare exceptions made many years ago. I'm not criticizing that decision, I'm just stating that it's a fact. The Palestinian national movement is made up of a finite number of organizations, most of whom compete from time to time in elections, either within the PA or in various other configurations such as professional bodies.

I'm not sure why you care about the definition of 'Jewish.' The question at hand is whether being defined as Jewish gives you legal privileges or not. Sadly, Israel today does award some privileges on the basis of nationality. But if it got rid of those privileges, it would still be a Jewish state because there is a large Jewish majority.

You should stop worrying about who is Jewish - that is quite irrelevant. Instead, join with the demands of Arab parties in Israel like Balad or Hadash who simply demand that Israeli citizenship no longer discriminate on the basis of religion or ethnicity.

Zionism is an idea of in-gathering of Jews who were oppressed minority everywhere in the world.  It is not directed against ANYBODY, but to the creation of good conditions for Jews, who were an oppressed minority all over the world (with a few notable exceptions from time to time, as was Germany before Hitler).  Israel is an expression of this dream of Jews to have their place under the sun, like any other nation.  Palestine (which was a territory of current Jordan, Israel and West Bank) was a province of Ottoman Empire (Turks) for several centuries, totally neglected with very few people, including small Jewish communities, Christian communities, Arab nomads (Beduins) and poor Arab peasants (read Mark Twain Innocents Abroad).  Finally, in 1948 the UN decided to partition Palestine into Arab and Jewish part in order to enable Jews to have their own state, where they would not be oppressed (or exterminated as in Holocaust). Unfortunately Arabs did not want it...and have been calling for the destruction of Israel AND Jews for the last 60 years (just as Hitler did) .  Only Egypt had signed a comprehensive peace treaty with Israel and exchanged ambassadors (Sadat was killed by the terrorists for wanting peace). Most other Arab countries do not have Jews left (most of them fled and settled in Israel around 1948) and do not let anybody enter their country, if they have Israeli stamp in their Passport.  After 1948 most synagogues, Jewish homes and cemeteries and Jewish owned land in the Arab world were destroyed or confiscated.  East Jerusalem was under Jordan control from 1948-1967 from which all Jews who had lived there for centuries were expelled and synagogues of the old city destroyed.  Only after the 6-day war in 1967, when Israel was almost destroyed, were Jews able to worship at their holliest place:  Western Wall.  In contrast, all religions are well taken care of in Israel and any peaceful person is welcome to worship as they like in Israel!   Just look at the Dome on the Rock, which is taken as a symbol for this forum on peace!

The current Israel (excluding Gaza and West Bank) has 20% Arab population that has same rights as other Israeli citizens (Bahai, Jews, Christians etc), except that they do not have to serve in the Army (which is obligatory for all Israeli citizens because of constant threat to the survival of Israel).   Considering that even Israeli Arabs are protesting with anti-Israeli slogans, it is natural that Israeli Jews have a hard time trusting them.   Trust needs to be earned, but unfortunately, it appears that West Bank and Gaza Arabs (who became Palestinians after the 1967 war) are more interested in DESTROYING what Jews have built, rather than building their OWN state of Palestine.  Just read the Hamas and Hetzbollah charter, and listen to the President of Iran speeches.  There is no symmetry here...Israel never called for a destruction of ANY other country, and Jews do not go around the world screaming obscene slogans (like death to the Jews and Jews are dogs as many Arabs and other Muslims do).  The moderate Muslims are too intimidated to protest against all kinds of antisemitic activities and terrorists, so it appears that the extremists call all the shots. Their lives are in constant danger from Hamas and others who want destruction of Israel (see Amnesty International Report on Gaza).   Nobody protested thousands of rockets launched for many years by Hamas and Hetzbollah with an intention to destroy what Jews had built.

Hopefully, Egypt and Jordan, who have been in peace with Israel are sincere in their efforts with other Arabs to recognize Israel right to exist and help Palestinians organize their own state, whose goal is to promote good life for Palestinians, rather than destruction of Jews.   However, the extremely high birth rate of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank presents a real challenge to anybody who wants to have a viable Palestinian state.  Only if they use the money wisely, rather then spending it on weapons can they employ all those young people, who are currently dreaming of becoming martyrs for their holly war against Israel.

There isn't anything inherently racist in a Jewish state, assuming the state became Jewish by the existing group deciding they wanted to become Jewish.  However, Israel, as established, is far more racist than France today and indeed than the Palestinian body politic (racist in this context meant in the legal way, discrimination on the basis of religion or religious/ethnic heritage).  The French are of the French nation primarily because there is a place called France they happen to be living in.  Some are immigrants, often from former French colonies, but most are about as indigenous as one gets in Europe.  Israel is a Jewish state because its founders, who were in fact almost all immigrants or of immigrant stock and whose ancesters cannot be considered indigenous to the land they took over, deliberately massacred or expelled the majority of the people, the indigenous people, on the grounds that they aren't Jewish. 

I'm unaware that the Palestinian national movement has made any decision to bar Jews, that is different from barring Zionists which is the vast majority of Israeli Jews.  I would challenge you to point to such an explicit decision.  Your statement that others must not exert a decisive influence for the Palestinian nation to be free and independent is way more divorced from reality.  Just what do you think the occupation is all about, the seige, the assassinations and imprisonment of political leaders, the murder of new reporters by Israeli snipers, the permit system denying people access to their farms and families, the torture and massacres?  Get real.

Salam/Shalom to every one. For reasons unknown to me, my account was deleted and I was locked out of the site. Perhaps it was a technical glitch, I am sure it was not might over right. Always enjoyed the discussions even with those I strongly disagree with. I had to sign in using a different email account. I am now trying to find out what happened and why I was locked out? All the best to every one.
Sami Jamil Jadallah

Vlasta wrote: "However, the extremely high birth rate of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank presents a real challenge to anybody who wants to have a viable Palestinian state" , I wonder what solution you have in mind, there are the Chinese model of one child. Then there is the castration of men and hysterectomy for women. Now the Palestinians are being told what to do with their sex life. Vlasta is for their own economic benefits or this for the benefits of Jewish demographic superiority? Surprised that someone who is well educated even raise this issue. Keeping in mind, Israel with one year was able to bring in one million Russian Jews and no one raised the issue of the viability of the Jewish state, but increased population does raise a concern. But then there is always another war that Israel can wage against Palestinian children to control the grow rate and make the Palestinian state viable.

The overpopulation is a problem of the entire world, and it is specially pertinent in areas where the birthrate is high and the resources cannot keep up with this population growth.   Jews who came to Israel from Russia were sponsored by many Jews from America and other Western countries.  

The rapid growth of the population in Gaza and less so in the West Bank would not be a problem if all the money that has been pouring into those areas from various international donors ended to help people, rather than line  the pockets of the "leadership".   Also, if all the money spent by Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia on providing Hamas and Hetzbollah with weapons, were to be spent on education (and propping up production of things to live on), then all this rapid population growth would not be a problem.  After all, Singapore and Hong Kong have much higher population density than Gaza. but they are thriving economies based on production and commerce.  Naturally, Israel would have to open the sea access in Gaza, which they would do if they could be certain that the access would not serve to import rockets from Iran, with a range to shoot over entire Israel.  Once the leaders of Palestinians are earnest in wanting to build their OWN state, rather than destroying the Zionist state (Zion is a Biblical name for Palestine), the entire area could become a Garden of Eden for everybody to enjoy.  

Nobody has a right to decide how many children a family should have, as long as one can support them and love them.  For most women, this is a number much smaller than the one of Nadya Suleman  ;-)!   Actually, studies show that the  number of children is inversely proportional to the education of the women.   While the Chinese policy of one child may seam extreme, having a population double every 20 years is a recipe for disaster, not only for that country but for the entire world.  All the environmental efforts we may make are for naught if we do not stabilize our numbers.   we have already exceeded the carrying capacity of our Mother Earth.

Viasta you are not correst when you state:

"The current Israel (excluding Gaza and West Bank) has 20% Arab population that has same rights as other Israeli citizens (Bahai, Jews, Christians etc), except that they do not have to serve in the Army (which is obligatory for all Israeli citizens because of constant threat to the survival of Israel)."  

Q: Isn't Israel the only democracy in the Middle East, surrounded by dictatorships?
 
A: While it is certainly true that Israel?s democratic structures are considerably more advanced than those of its neighbors, Israel fails on many counts. Discriminatory laws and bureaucratic practices in Israel bar Arabs in Israel from many privileges, especially owning land. Other systems tie certain opportunities to service in the army, from which most Arab Israelis are barred. There is a huge gap in municipal services between Jewish and non-Jewish areas in Israel. So-called ?unrecognized villages?, which are Arab towns that are not recognized by Israel as organized municipalities, receive virtually no services and are often subject to demolition or confiscation. Arabs families are routinely denied building permits and have their homes demolished if they build or add on to them without such permits. And all of this only deals with the situation for Arabs within the pre-1967 borders. Palestinians under Israeli occupation enjoy no civil or human rights, except those that depend on the whim of the commanders or soldiers in charge. Israel has legalized practices that are considered abusive in its interrogation procedures, detains Palestinians without charge for extensive periods, imposes unilateral and deadly curfews, and denies freedom of travel. By international human rights standards, these are not the hallmarks of a highly functioning democracy. Problems of democracy, as Edward Said often pointed out, are quite severe in the Arab world, but that does not excuse the shortcomings Israel has in its own right. There is much to be proud of in Israeli democracy, but there is also much to be very concerned about. return to top

from: www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org

Vlasta. Salam. I do not see you talk about the high birthrate of Hassidic Jews and how this is a problem for Israel. Of course when 400,000 Jewish settlers take over some 40% of the land leaving some 3,500,000 million Palestinians in 60% of the land then you understandwhy their is dense population. Perhaps if Israel stops stealing and confiscating more and more Palestinian land and stop destroy farms and uprooting trees, then these poor illiterate and oversexed and over productive people can live on without relying on charity.Your arguments on population has noting to do with economic development but of fear that there are simply too many Palestinians for Jewish comfort. On the issue of Zionism, I guess we have to disagree. I think that Zionism is racism and is an evil force in today's world and have no place in 21st century. Well, that is my opinion, you and the others have yours of course. Israel will always have a solution for too many Palestinians, and Gaza is one example.

I just wanted to clarify something ::

Hampshire students organized to get the college to divest from these six specific corporations because of their involvement in the Occupation.

We managed to pressure the administration to do so.

We're not concerned with whether or not the administration is willing to admit this, or to own it. We've decided as a community to divest, whether they like it or not, and that's all that matters, because it shows that such organizing and such pressure is possible, and because it demonstrates that whole communities exist that oppose the Occupation and are willing to mobilize against it. That's the importance of any divestment campaign, especially in the beginning. We've opened space. We've raised dialogue. We've introduced vocabulary into the US public they may not be familiar with (for example, the use of the term "occupation").

I recommend you read SJP's response to the administration's "statement of clarification" here ::

http://www.hsjp.org/2009/02/13/sjp%E2%80%99s-official-response-to-the-administrative-statement-regarding-divestment-from-the-occupation-of-palestine-021309/

And I recommend you check out "Voices of Hampshire, Voices of Divestment" here ::

voicesofdivestment.wordpress.com

Sami, I think that you are wrong when implying vile attributes to Zionism or Judaism, and your repeating the accusations does not make me trust you  ;-)!  You need to read history of both sides to get a more balanced views...