Excellent 60 Minutes Episode on the Settlements
Published January 27, 2009 @ 05:07AM PT
Part of the transcript of last night's episode, Time Running Out for a Two State Solution?
(CBS) Getting a peace deal in the Middle East is such a priority to President Obama that his first foreign calls on his first day in office were to Arab and Israeli leaders. And on day two, the president made former Senator George Mitchell his special envoy for Middle East peace. Mr. Obama wants to shore up the ceasefire in Gaza, but a lasting peace really depends on the West Bank where Palestinians had hoped to create their state. The problem is, even before Israel invaded Gaza, a growing number of Israelis and Palestinians had concluded that peace between them was no longer possible, that history had passed it by. For peace to have a chance, Israel would have to withdraw from the West Bank, which would then become the Palestinian state.
It’s known as the "two-state" solution. But, while negotiations have been going on for 15 years, hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers have moved in to occupy the West Bank. Palestinians say they can't have a state with Israeli settlers all over it, which the settlers say is precisely the idea.
For 60 Minutes to explore the failure of the two state solution should be a cause of great concern to the Israeli leadership. And unlike some proponents of eliminating israel, the people interviewed here include those who genuinely preferred an independent Palestinian state along side Israel:
"While my heart still wants to believe that the two-state solution is possible, my brain keeps telling me the opposite because of what I see in terms of the building of settlements. So, these settlers are destroying the potential peace for both people that would have been created if we had a two-state solution," Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, once a former candidate for Palestinian president, told Simon.
As well as Israeli settlers, who seem to be quite proud about their role in preventing the emergence of a Palestinian state:
Daniella Weiss moved from Israel to the West Bank 33 years ago. She has been the mayor of a large settlement.
"I think that settlements prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state in the land of Israel. This is the goal. And this is the reality," Weiss told 60 Minutes correspondent Bob Simon.
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Comments (38)
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Charles is a nonprofit professional with 20 years of experience working with nonprofit organizations in Israel, Palestine and the U.S. For the past few years, he's been specializing in online organizing.
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I'm glad you saw this and are linking to it, Charles. I happened to catch it too; you're right that it was an excellent program--excellent in the way it covered the problems, that is (it feels strange to use a word such as "excellent" in connection with something so devastating).
Posted by Stephanie Ernst on 01/27/2009 @ 07:26AM PT
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Former President Carter reacting to proposed one state solutions:http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iMCrzJftdoD4FlwYnQP1gm4O-UmgD95V8UC80
I haven't decided how I feel about it yet, and I'm sure some will try to sway me one way or the other, but why is a democracy - bent on spreading democracy (supposedly) - promoting a theocracy? A two state solution provides a nation and opportunities for Jews in Israel, and Muslims in Palestine, but what about the non-Jews who currently reside in Israel (the part of Israel which would continue to remain Israel after two states are formed.) Or the Jews who reside in what will become Palestine? Why must these people be disenfranchised? No doubt they have jobs and roots in their communities - No one should have to choose between abandoning that or abandoning their human rights.
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/27/2009 @ 07:58AM PT
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According to Simon, Palestinians "have to submit to humiliating delays at checkpoints and roadblocks." Simon fails to mention the Palestinian terror that has plagued Israel, necessitating such security measures. In an incredibly loaded narrative, Simon claims that Israel has three options: "They could try ethnic cleansing, drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank, or they could give the Palestinians the vote. That would be the democratic option but it would mean the end of the Jewish state. Or they could try apartheid - have the minority Israelis rule the majority Palestinians, but apartheid regimes don't have a very long life." Intentionally pandering to Palestinian propaganda, Simon immediately follows this up by associating Israel's security barrier with apartheid: "Apartheid? Israel is building what it calls a security wall between the West Bank and Israel." As the barrier is mostly a fence, Israel certainly does not refer to it as a "wall" and Simon makes no reference as to why the barrier was constructed nor to its effectiveness at preventing terror. Instead, viewers are treated to one side of the story. It appears that Simon is attempting to misrepresent the majority of Israelis. He claims that "Moderate Israelis who deplore the occupation used to believe passionately in a two-state solution." Yet, to illustrate this point, he interviews Meron Benvenisti, an Israeli who has long advocated a one-state solution and considers Israel to be worse than apartheid South Africa. Is this representative of the Israeli mainstream? Likewise, Simon's focus on settler Daniella Weiss is not representative following Weiss's rejection by the mainstream settler movement.
Posted by Michael Ross on 01/27/2009 @ 02:16PM PT
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Likewise, your posts, Michael, have notoriously mirrored the comments of extreme right-wing Israelis. A bias worthy of pointing out for readers to understand.
I would encourage everyone to research the situation as much as they can on their own before drawing conclusions based on blogs and their associated comments - which are not academic publications.
I'd also like to repeat the sentiments of Martin Luther King Jr.: "One day we must come to see that peace is not merely a distant goal we seek, but that it is a means by which we arrive at that goal."
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/27/2009 @ 03:53PM PT
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Jeremy,
I strongly disagree, that my posts are extreme right-wing, my posts represent mainstream Israelis, a very needed balance to most of the views represented on this blog, that very closely represent the Palestinian point of view.
And I back this statement from my numerous communications with my many contacts in Israel and the American Jewish community.
Posted by Michael Ross on 01/27/2009 @ 07:42PM PT
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I don't know any Israelis. I don't know any Palestinians. There is little bias. I fear that comments here (and maybe blog posts too) may appear slanted towards Palestinian view points because there is no Jihadist, or Hamas member advocating violence against Israel in these threads for us to equally criticize. Should that person appear, you may find that some of us are much more middle-of-the-road - or at least I am.
I oppose violence of any kind. I do not support suicide bombers. I do not agree with Hamas' current agenda to end the Israeli state - particularly if done by violent means. Likewise, I disapprove of IDF's bombing/invasion of Gaza and the inhumane treatment of Palestinians.
I wont be associated with any group simply because we both oppose the Israeli military campaign and blockade. Disapproving of the current Israeli stance towards Palestine does not make me pro-Hamas, or even pro-Palestine. Polarizing people leads to conflict. What's important to remember is that there is no Us vs. Them. There is no good and evil, except that which resides in every human being.
Also, it's a natural tendency for people to congregate towards those with like minds. It is no surprise to me that you have many friends/contacts that agree with you - I don't consider that evidence of you representing a majority of Israelis (not that I believe the contrary - I really don't know) nor do I find it relevant because as you well know it was mainstream Germans who...
... No, I'm not trying to draw a parallel between Israelis and Nazis, I'm just pointing out a flaw in your argument.
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/28/2009 @ 05:41AM PT
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Some chutzpah !!!! Now Michael you claim to speak for mainstream israelis and American Jewish Community????
Posted by A N on 01/28/2009 @ 04:19AM PT
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Aref, I don't claim to speak for anyone, read my words, I back my statements from my communications with these groups. I don't speak for them but find that the majority of them agree with my opinion on these subjects.
Most of the blogs posted here represent your view. To claim that this 60 minutes program was excellent, when it showed one slanted side of the problem does not contribute to peace, it only strengthens one side and makes it more stubborn., therfore slowing down the peace process.
Posted by Michael Ross on 01/28/2009 @ 07:00AM PT
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From my travels to Israel and brief experience in the hebron hills I do not believe a two-state solution is possible in the near future. From the settlements point of view, Israel actively supports settlements it deems "illegal" by connecting them to electricity and water grids. The direction of the security fence gobbles up palestinian land in huge chunks and pieces. Highways for Israeli citizens only also carve up the west bank for hundreds of miles.
It may be hard for a lot of people to comprehend but Israel does not want to give up the settlements. It wants them it likes them and it will continue to expand them. Whether you are against it or for it those are the facts.
Posted by Nick Messina on 01/28/2009 @ 09:36AM PT
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Nick, who says the Palestinians must have all of the West Bank, any part of it will do, once they renounce terror, time is against them, that is the message they don't seem to get.
They could have had half the country in 1947, but no they wanted it all, and so they lost, and will continue to lose territory as long as they cling to the fantasy of all Palestine for them.
Posted by Michael Ross on 01/28/2009 @ 09:47AM PT
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Forcing the Palestinians into a continually diminishing piece of land because of the acts of "terrorists" hardly seems like an appropriate move.
Why should an entire ethnic group, suffer (and they are undoubtedly suffering) because of the actions of a few who violently oppose the settlements/blockades/etc... ? Why should the next generation grow up and struggle for room in a tiny strip of land because of what the previous generations participated in?
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/28/2009 @ 11:15AM PT
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Jeremy, they shouldn't suffer neither should the millions kept in refugee camps for 62 years.
The problem is, the Arab countries refuse to take care of their own, for political reasons. Israel on the other hand has taken in millions of Jews in these last 62 years.
This is the only case in the history of the world, were the world is looking to Israel to take care of Arab refugees, when their are 40 Arab countries with millions of square miles of land and trillions of oil dollars available and a low density population, why should Israel take care of Arab refugees, that were created by Arab aggression against Israel, little Israel has only 20,000 square miles, what's going on here?
Posted by Michael Ross on 01/28/2009 @ 01:00PM PT
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Arabs are much more diverse in culture, religion, opinion and identity than you appear to think. Part of the reason that there is so much violence in the middle east is because ancient tribes have been forced together into "nations" based on how European powers, particularly Britain, carved up the land during colonization.
Lest we forget that much of the middle east is desert. Also, we cannot forget income distributions and the disparity between rich and poor - The general Arab population may want to take care of Palestinians, there is a strong history of hospitality, but those petro dollars you speak of, are not in the hands of average Arabs, their in the hands of oil Barons, and wasted away on huge mansions and silver audis. That's capitalism.
The Palestinians are on land that they've inhabited long enough to call home. That land happens to be land that Israel has annexed. It's Israel's problem, they cannot brush it under the Arab carpet.
Why should Israel take care of Arab refugees - who are there not just because of "Arab" aggression, but ALSO because of Jewish expansion? Because it's future generations at stake - people who hold no responsibility for what's going on today and in the last 60+ years - and their all human-beings! Their lives have value! You are what you do most - why not take this opportunity and bring out the compassionate and benevolent side of the Jews?
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/29/2009 @ 05:54AM PT
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The bizarre story of the Palestinian people as written by a former terrorist Walid Shoebat:
“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
“We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.
There is no such a thing like a Palestinian people, or a Palestinian culture, or a Palestinian language, or a Palestinian history. There has never been any Palestinian state, neither any Palestinian archaeological find nor coinage. The present-day "Palestinians" are an Arab people, with Arab culture, Arabic language and Arab history. They have their own Arab states from where they came into the Land of Israel about one century ago to contrast the Jewish immigration. That is the historical truth. They were Jordanians (another recent British invention, as there has never been any people known as "Jordanians"), and after the Six-Day War in which Israel utterly defeated the coalition of nine Arab states and took legitimate possession of Judea and Samaria, the Arab dwellers in those regions underwent a kind of anthropological miracle and discovered that they were Palestinians - something they did not know the day before.
So why is it that the world continues to blame Israel for the plight of Arabs that were dealt a blow by their own people 62 years ago, and now make false claims to an ancient land that does not belong to them and never did?
And now 60 minutes writes a story about the suffering of these people, without revealing the whole history, its meaningless.
Posted by David Cohen on 01/28/2009 @ 05:23PM PT
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Most white Americans are not indigenous to North America. There is undeniable proof that there was a large population of Native Americans who resided here. My family have no ancient ties to where my grand parents currently live, but the centuries old piles of clam shells up on the shore near their house are part of the remains of Native American villages - they're very common where I'm from. Do the first nations of North America have the right to kick me and my family out of the land that we grew up on? No. Do I have a right to move onto their reservation if I succeed in retaining my family's home? No.
It's in the past. It was my ancestors that invaded North America, and I show my appreciation for Native American forgiveness by working with Native American reservation soup kitchens and food pantries in my line of work (food-banking.)
Let's also not forget that indigenous Jews of Israel are of the same race as the Muslims in the area. Haplogroups J1 and J2, originating in Egypt and Lavant respectively are the most common among Jews AND Muslims in the same region. Both groups of people come from the same area. There was a time when both groups were the same people. That likeness still exists, but the few differences are highlighted too often.
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/29/2009 @ 07:18AM PT
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This fraud Walid Shoebat that has been exposed to the world for what he really is? You can certainly do better than that David.
Posted by A N on 01/29/2009 @ 04:15AM PT
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Likewise - I am also not convinced. Culture can be defined as "the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group."
One thing that needs to be understood is that everything changes and that has a lot of implications, but here, what has changed is the definition of the identity of those who inhabit what is regarded as Palestine (now) and are of Arab/Muslim origins. More specifically, the ethnic group which inhabits Israel and which is going through the process of being forcibly expelled. That's their identity, and if they call it "Palestinian," fine. They don't have to have been an historic culture to have rights - they're still people.
The idea of throwing Arabs together in "Arab" countries because they're all "Arab" is racist. You take away so much that makes up part of the identity of individuals in the region and you can't just put some in the land of others because they have the same skin color or because they speak the same language or share the same religion - there is SO much more to people than those attributes.
These are more generalizations, more lies, that dehumanize the "enemy" to make it easier to go to war. It's easier to attack an ethnicity than it is an individual. Racist comments like that are polarizing and do nothing more than spread animosity.
It's so easy to slip into the good vs. evil mentality because it paints what appears to be a clearer picture of the world. We humans and our small brains have a hard time wrapping our heads around how amazingly complex the world and even individuals are. Don't get lazy and start generalizing about groups of people based on their differences from other groups of people - that has only ever lead to conflict. The truth is what things we human beings have in common are vastly more in number than the things that separate us. Discovering this will make living with each other much easier.
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/29/2009 @ 06:38AM PT
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Aref,
Thanks for the compliment, "you can do better". It's irrelevent if Walid was a terrorist or not, he is a Palestinian and his views are what matter, they make a lot of sense.
I ask again for tne Nth time, why is Israel responsible for millions of refugees that were created by an Arab war that tried to eliminate Israel?
Posted by David Cohen on 01/29/2009 @ 07:07AM PT
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I've already answered this above, but I'll try to be more blunt. What you call "Arabs" and "Israelis" have much more in common with each other than what differentiates them. They're all human beings, all of their lives have value, all deserve love and respect. Every human being has the responsibility of every human being because all of our actions are interrelated. You may buy a t-shirt today, but you may be increasing demand for more sweat-shop labor. You drop your cigarette on the ground and it makes its way to the ocean (as everything does) contributing to the huge garbage island the size of Texas in the Pacific. You build a house in East Jerusalem, after evicting an innocent because they share the same religion, language and skin color of your enemy.
When Israel builds a settlement in West Bank, there were people there before - people who refer to themselves as Palestinian - and they were evicted. Israeli settlers did the eviction - they made them refugees - that's where their responsibility originates from. Maybe you're right, and the the "Arab" CULTURE wasn't there first, but at least 50% of the Palestinian population is under 20 years of age - they can't be punished for the "invasion" of Israel that happened over 40 years ago - they didn't do it!
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/29/2009 @ 07:38AM PT
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Jeremy, you make a very good point, and in a perfect world, their would be no refugees and no victims, and no murdering of innocent women and children, but unfortunately we live in a real world were all of this happens.
Israel is not punishing anyone, Israel has offered peace to the Arabs living in the WB numerous times, only to be rejected again and again, with devastating results, suicide bombers killing thousand of innocent Israelis that had done nothing wrong either. We have peace with Jordan and Egypt, so why not with the WB?
The Arabs have to stop trying to eliminate Israel and sincerely want to live side by side, and they will see that we are willing to do so. So far Israel does not see this sincerity from the Arab side.
Posted by David Cohen on 01/29/2009 @ 07:56AM PT
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I imagine it's difficult for the Palestinians to trust the sincerity of the Israelis as well. There's another thing you two have in common. Verbally, the Israelis offer peace, but actions speak louder than words.
My ideas are not some fantasy of a "perfect" world. I'm very aware of human's animal instinct to compete and kill, but it's our souls that separate us from our primal ancestors. We're evolving spiritually and there is more evidence of this every day. The idea of peace, trust and love is pragmatic. Look at your next-door neighbors for proof. Every instant, actions of love and trust take place. Non-violent resolutions vastly outnumber violent ones. Every day, we face conflict, but instead of beating each other we sort it out. More people live in peace with those around them than those who don't. More nations are at peace with each other than those who are at war. Ahimsa is the natural tendency of human beings and it goes unannounced daily because it's the right thing to do and it's so extremely prevalent and a fundamental characteristic of all human beings that is so obvious, we rarely have to point it out.
But some of us forget. Some of us hear about alien cultures and because we cannot see them, or are taught not to look, either in school, or by media or family - we forget, as you have forgotten, that they are human too, and they subscribe to Ahimsa in their daily lives and have the capacity to reach out in Ahimsa to you. Instead you define the alien culture by what scares you about them. You don't nurture the Ahimsa inside them. You forcibly take what you think is rightfully yours, and it may be, but regardless and whether you mean to or not - you're nurturing another fundamental part of every human being inside the Palestinians (and yourselves) - the Himsa. The desire to compete at all costs. Despite temporary cease-fires and press announcements, they feel threatened by you. It will take more than cease-fires, and words and pacifism to gain their trust - it will take something that has no word in English to describe but what Gandhi coined as Satyagraha - Sanskrit for "force of truth" literally, but what he calls "love-force" - despite how trite it may sound. (Of course, it's trite because of how common and obvious and true it is.)
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/29/2009 @ 08:57AM PT
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Regarding your last paragraph more specifically - and apologies ahead of time for posting so much, Charles -
"The Arabs have to stop trying to eliminate Israel and sincerely want to live side by side, and they will see that we are willing to do so. So far Israel does not see this sincerity from the Arab side."
What I'm saying is that the Palastinians want to live side by side AND they want to eliminate the Israeli state at the same time. Just like you want to live in peace, but support measures of violence. We're human, we're allowed to have internal conflict. The point is to nurture the side that wants to live in peace - it's there - you cannot deny it - it's in every human being - no one ULTIMATELY wants war. War is perceived as a means to an end - which is peace. Ironic, really.
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/29/2009 @ 09:05AM PT
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When Jews began to arrive in Palestine with the dream of reestablishing Jewish homeland - there was a people occupying the entire land. All that's happened makes a kind of sense, and I don't like demonizing either of the two nations living their today. But we need a better approach.
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/29/2009 @ 07:57AM PT
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Charles, I think that both sides are being manipulated by larger powers, for their own interests.
Iran, Saudi Arabia and Russia today and in the past Egypt and Iraq.
If somehow the world negates these powers from influencing events in the ME. We, the local people can have a new approach based on our local interests.
Posted by David Cohen on 01/29/2009 @ 08:12AM PT
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Funny that you don't mention the United States. It is the largest importer of oil, the largest oil exporter, has the largest naval fleet, etc. Most importantly - it isn't actually located in the Middle East.
From my perspective, Iran, Iraq, Egypt and all the other countries have quite a bit of legitimacy to pursue their interests. Iran, Egypt and Iraq have all suffered from the effects of imperialism, with their own countries being invaded by foreign powers (not neighbors).
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/29/2009 @ 08:53AM PT
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I see the US as a positive influence, with no need to uphold a totalitarian regime, like Iran does.
Posted by David Cohen on 01/29/2009 @ 09:03AM PT
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Plus the Iranian Ayatollahs truly believe that their salvation will only come with the destruction of Israel. With that kind of ideology I see little chance of rationalization of the relationship with them, either with Israel or the US.
Posted by David Cohen on 01/29/2009 @ 09:06AM PT
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An Hamas leader once said that the charter (particularly the part about wanting to eliminate the state of Israel) was not written by a prophet or set in stone. Likewise, an essay you just sent me quoted something from the Qur'an:
"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".- Qur'an 17:104
...Implying a desire by true Muslims to coexist with Jews. The Hamas charter, and the alleged beliefs of Iranian Ayatollahs are not absolute. Don't allow the words of "extremists" inhibit you from reaching peace with all Arabs and anyone.
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/29/2009 @ 09:34AM PT
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Jeremy, the words of the charter do not inhibit our desire for peace, but the deeds do.
When Iran sends rockets to Hamas and Hizbellah that then launch them on innocent women and children, what do you expect us to do?
What would you do?
What would any country do?
Posted by David Cohen on 01/29/2009 @ 10:27AM PT
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It's a tough question, and one that I am hardly qualified to answer, but I'll do my best. One disclaimer though, no solution is without casualties. I've never said Satyagraha will be easy, in fact, it's probably the hardest, but it does ensure long term peace. It requires patience and self sacrifise at times, by either side trying to do it. The following isn't exactly what I would try to do, but I feel it's a solution that you may be more apt to accept and one that I could live with.
Obviously, protect your people. Provide shelter for them. Provide the means to rebuild what they lose. I believe Israel has this already, and thankfully the thousands of rockets that do hit Israel kill as few as they do.
Arms shipments can be intercepted. I don't know how Iran gets the rockets to Hamas, etc... but planes can be diverted and ships can be stopped. Arms embargos have worked elsewhere, no reason they wont here. Satyagraha.
Consider apprehending terrorists instead of destroying a hospital, with patients inside who may be used as shields. Paramilitary forces have a good track record of apprehending people. Rubber bullets and tear gas can go along way. Gaza is a small area, there are only so few places they can hide. If a small group of "terrorists" can kidnap your soldiers, you can "kidnap" them... and their rockets. Satyagraha.
Among the huge arsenal that the United States has and which Israel shops from, there must be some anti-rocket weapons available. While I normally wont support the purchasing of weapons, I can hardly imagine anyone giving you a hard time for shooting rockets out of the sky. Satyagraha.
Now those are just a few short term measures that could be considered. There are some brilliant logistics people out there who could probably think of something better.
For the long term - Satyagraha and Ahimsa is what you should subscribe to. Don't give the children, who are innocent and not responsible for what's going on, a reason to hate you. Don't kill their parents. Don't evict them. Don't blockade them. Don't inhibit them from thriving. But those are easy inactions. Satyagraha is Action. On top of eliminating reasons for them to hate you, GIVE them reasons to love you. Help them thrive. Build schools for them - giving you the right to ensure their curriculum does not include hateful ideas about Jews. Build hospitals for them, saving them from ill taking away their ability to blame you for biased treatment. Love them, as you would want the children of Arab/Muslims to love you when they grow up.
They will witness the benevolence of Israelis and question their elders' desire to do harm. When a suicide bomber blows up an Israeli built school, with Gazan and Israeli children inside - the Palestinians will start to see these actions and move away from radical/violent Hamas leaders.
Influence the next generation - they are what matters most. They can guarantee continued violence or an end to it for good. It's up to you how to raise them.
You asked me what Israelis could do, so I hope after all that you're not assuming I expect Israel to do all the work. I ask the same from the Palestinians. I ask them to endure what they can reasonably endure. I ask them to practise Satyagraha against Israeli actions they cannot endure. I ask them to cooperate in mutualy benefitial endeavours.
It only takes one side to start, though.
It's not easy. I know that. But if the Israelis play an active role in providing a civil society for Palestinian children to grow up in - you will have peace. Long lasting peace. It will take 30-60 years for a generation to assume responsibility and governance of its own - but a majority of Palestinians are young, and I imagine it happening on the shorter end of that range.
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/29/2009 @ 11:20AM PT
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The US upholds the totalitarian regimes of Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and to a lesser extent Jordan and other key allies. It also provides massive support to Israel.
Rockets are a symptom of the unresolved conflict. Resolve the conflict, and the rockets go away. Take away the rockets without resolving the conflict, and the status quo of Palestinian victimization remains in place.
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/29/2009 @ 10:33AM PT
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Hamas and Hizbellah with the help of Iran are de facto working hard at eliminating Israel, that is an undisputed fact of reality today, now in Israel.
And believe me Israel will never, allow another holocaust.
So until we can resolve this, their can be no peace.
Posted by David Cohen on 01/29/2009 @ 10:46AM PT
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Despite the obvious truth about the dualistic nature of humanity - the fact that every human being is capable and motivated to live in peace; despite the fact that the evidence is so abundantly clear, you still believe that there is a human force so absolute and evil and bent on your destruction - and that the only solution is violence.
You don't even take the time to prove my methods of Satyagraha wrong - you just scream RETALIATION!
Such tragedy. There is the circle of violence. After centuries of oppression culminating in the mid 20th century holocaust, we get people like you - hell bent on revenge.
I pray the children Palestine don't think like you. If Israel continues on its path of violence the next generation won't witness the holocaust and other atrocities against your people. They wont see the good side of the Israelis. They wont see the love that is capable inside of you. All they'll see is your bombs in their homes, their schools, their hospitals, everywhere! They'll only see your soldiers shooting their parents. They'll only face the reality that there are no jobs because of crippling blockades. They'll only see your flag, up on the hill with all the "good stuff" holding them back with rifles and tanks and witnessing all this and no good as an counter-example to learn from - you'll only teach them one language to use when communicating back with you - hate and violence. You ensure continued attacks against your people. You ensure another round of retaliation. You endanger yourself, you family, Israel and every Jew in the world.
Give the Palestinians a reason to love you!
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/29/2009 @ 01:27PM PT
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Charles, the conflict is not between Israel and the people living in the WB and Gaza, it is between Iran and Israel.
And until this conflict is resolved no peace will happen. Iran want to destroy Israel they have said so many times, and they follow this with deeds, including the development of nuclear weapons, so everything else is secondary to this essential fact.
Posted by David Cohen on 01/29/2009 @ 10:50AM PT
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Iran leaders are definitely erratic and have supported terror since the Islamic republic's founding but they are not INSANE. Their not stupid. They are rational people acting in their interests. They know if they launched nuclear missiles against Israel that Israel and the United State would annihilate the entire country. Iran is using its perceived stature as defender of palestinians from Israel to serve as a rallying call of the muslim world. They may want to destroy Israel but MAD (mutual assured destruction) theory still applies today.
Posted by Nick Messina on 01/29/2009 @ 05:08PM PT
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Nick, MAD does not apply to Iran, they are fundamentalist, they believe in all their black hearts that their messiah will come once Israel is annihilated.
You and your friends are doing all their dirty work by attacking Israel while they secretly develop nuclear weapons targeting Israel and the West.
Gaza was just a diversion, you are missing the forest from the trees, that's what they want, and endless discussion on Gaza while they continue their mad rush to the bomb.
Posted by David Cohen on 01/29/2009 @ 11:00PM PT
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While we speak Iran is sending ships with new rockets and weapons to Gaza, one has been apprehended in the Suez canal and another is in on the way in the Mediterranean.
Don't you see what is going on, Iran wants the war to continue, so that they can develop their nuclear weapons while the world's attention is on Israel, their only credible adversary.
No one else sees them for what they are, Israel knows, Israel was in Iran for many years.
They are devious very devious.
Posted by David Cohen on 01/29/2009 @ 11:04PM PT
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Likewise.
Posted by Jeremy Keith Hammond on 01/30/2009 @ 05:45AM PT
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