Gaza Roundup: Change.org Voices and More

Published December 30, 2008 @ 02:18PM PT

My fellow Change.org bloggers have been posting on Gaza as well, all excellent posts chock full of informative videos, links and commentary:

Israeli/Palestine and the Logic of Nationalism, focusing on the ways that citizenship struggles figure into the I/P struggle. He also points this important tidbit out:

Matthew Yglesias reminds us that "It's important to recall that the rise of Hamas is, in part, the result of a very successful Israeli effort to undermine the authority and infrastructure of Fatah and the Palestinian Authority." Yglesias doesn't harbor much hope that the current assault will magically produce a moderate alternative to Hamas.

Michael Kleinman of our Humanitarian Affairs blog writes about the human face of the tragedy unfolding in Gaza right now. It contains some excellent videos. Part one, part two.

According to a joint statement released yesterday by Israeli and Palestinian medical and human rights organizations: "The Gaza health system is in a state of collapse and cannot provide an adequate response to the growing needs."

Here is Ahmed Yousef in a NYT op-ed from 2006, explaining and promoting the Hamas long term cease fire proposal from 2006, which was never taken seriously by Israel. At the time he was a senior advisor to the Palestinian Prime Minister, Ismail Haniya (Hamas.) He addresses a main concern here:

Such a concept — a period of nonwar but only partial resolution of a conflict — is foreign to the West and has been greeted with much suspicion. Many Westerners I speak to wonder how one can stop the violence without ending the conflict.

I would argue, however, that this concept is not as foreign as it might seem. After all, the Irish Republican Army agreed to halt its military struggle to free Northern Ireland from British rule without recognizing British sovereignty. Irish Republicans continue to aspire to a united Ireland free of British rule, but rely upon peaceful methods. Had the I.R.A. been forced to renounce its vision of reuniting Ireland before negotiations could occur, peace would never have prevailed. Why should more be demanded of the Palestinians, particularly when the spirit of our people will never permit it?

Look at the al-Jazeera Middle East headlines here. It's a good way to follow the story from Arab eyes. I was particularly interested in the reporting that Palestinian President Abbas is blaming Hamas for the violence.

BoingBoing.net wrote about a Twitter press conference held by the Israeli Consulate in New York. Nothing terribly suprising/interesting about the content, but I'm still impressed. To see the record, visit the link and scroll down till you reach the Twitter widget floating on the page.

So much is going on worthy of more posts. I'm particularly interested in honest evaluations of the protests that took place on Sunday, Monday, and today around the world. Are the they working? If not, what advice might we offer?

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Comments (43)

The first step in getting Israel to want peace is for the US to stop paying for their war. I don't think they have ever honestly put any real effort into it. You cannot treat other human beings the way Israeli's have treated Palestinians and not create conflict. I think the occupation of Ireland is a good example, it took hundreds of years but you never give up if you're children have no future or voice. War is terror with a bigger budget. Never forget Rachel Corey. If Israel wants to keep going down this path, let their citizens pay the bill. Holy land? Get real, it's a killing field.

Posted by joan Killelea on 12/30/2008 @ 05:04PM PT
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Joan, FYI Israel is treating the Palestinians better than any of the Arab states are. Ask why no Arab state will even allow the Palestinians born on their territory to become citizens, why have they kept them in refugee camps for 60 years? Israel is the only country in the ME where an Arab is a member of parliament. The Arabs living in Israel have more freedom than any of their brothers in Arab countries.

Posted by Michael Ross on 12/30/2008 @ 05:26PM PT
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Even knowing that Americans have been satiated in propaganda making Israel appear to be the victims, I'm STILL a little surprised at Americans' inability to understand that the Palestinians are WAY out powered by a military occupying force - with mind blowing amounts of $$$ support from the US. It just defies all common sense.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Not only that, but Israelis know that the way their government is handling this crisis is BAD for them too!
Israelis protesting the attacks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC_Bide7mlM

Meanwhile, Israel is blocking US medical aid from entering the area too (from CNN):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBpcCumKh1w

Sign the petition going to the UN Secity Council (and others) calling for ceasefire:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_time_for_peace/

Posted by Heather Meyer on 12/30/2008 @ 05:49PM PT
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An accurate perspective on the Levant is the independent documentary film "Occupation 101". Joan, you hit the nail right on the head--Israel isn't so much an independent state as it is a dependency of the United States, and the only interest the U.S. really has in Israel is its role as bulwark for oil.

Once the U.S. stops, as T. Boone Pickins says, exporting our wealth to countries that don't like us, we will end our dependence on Arab oil. Once that happens, Israel will be seen as a bleeder of precious U.S. resources...the parasite that it is.

Here we are in a major financial crunch and we're still funding...what, now? Bulldozers for other Rachel Corries? Please. We're best buddies with the Saudis, or hasn't anyone in Israel noticed?

Posted by Diane Levesque on 12/30/2008 @ 08:23PM PT
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Diane & Heather have been drinking the leftist "Kool-Aid".

Killing civilians by lobbing unguided rockets in the general direction of Israel is not the moral equivalent of defending your country against constant attacks. That is like saying the victim of a robbery was at fault for being at the scene.

Both of you probably went to a college that taught you WHAT to think not HOW to think.

Posted by S N on 12/30/2008 @ 09:16PM PT
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Michael,

Explain to me what you mean by 'they are treated better in Israel'?

Does that mean they do not have different ID cards from Jews in Israel?

Does that mean they can buy property anywhere in Israel? Open a business?

Does that mean if a settler kills an Arab in Israel, the settler will be prosecuted?

Does that mean they cannot confiscate an Arab's property without compensation or just cause?

Does that mean they won't arrest and beat an Arab without a warrant? Imprison?

Do they have equal rights in Israel...no not quite.

Do Arabs drive the same highways as Jews in Israel?

Do their cars have different color license plates in Israel?

When the IDF kills a child for throwing a stone will they be prosecuted?

Are women and children stripped searched at checkpoints if they are Arab?

Are Arabs deprived of electricity, water, food, medicine, etc...in this 'nice' Israel of which you applaud for treating THEM better.

Posted by James Appleton on 12/30/2008 @ 10:42PM PT
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Michael, strange rationalization your comment is. Though it is not at all obvious to me that any other country has violated Geneva Convention in its treatment of Palestinians (as Israel clearly has), whether or not Palestinians are better off in the occupied territories than they are elsewhere is totally irrelevent. Since when do we base our moral judgements upon prevailing winds? Or perhaps you are suggesting that there is good reason for Arabs (and others as well) to dislike Palestinians, that perhaps there is something inherently contemptible about Palestinians?

Posted by J S on 12/30/2008 @ 10:50PM PT
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Both sides must want peace for peace to be a reality.True peace will never come when violence is used by both sides.Sad as it must seem, niether side appears to really want peace.Leaders from all the surrounding countries must first all want peace - not only other countries from far away places.While both sides are trying to defeat the other it will continue unabated. Prayer & silence may finaly be the only way to find a way for each sides rights to be heard and understood.

Posted by John Goldingham on 12/30/2008 @ 11:05PM PT
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Given the virtually universal repugnance toward the targeting of civilians, one must ask how Israel fails to garner anything close to universal support in its "response" to Hamas' actions. Speaking personally, I can say that the logic of Israel's policies and the statements of those who speak on its behalf (in an official capacity) smack of collective punishment. Not only does this logic violate the Geneva Conventions, it also legitimates Hamas' bombardment of Israel. Insofar as Israel targets the infrastructure of the Gaza Strip (both in its tactical strikes and in its embargo of basic supplies) ostensibly in order to break Hamas (though I wonder whether there is is any historical precedence testifying to the success of such a strategy), Israel follows a policy that is for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from Hamas' only it proves to be a hundred times deadlier. In addition, the massive proliferation of Israel's settlements and the collusion between major media outlets and the American and Israeli governements in perpetuating an utterly disingenious discourse around this aspect of the conflict (among others) make it very difficult for me to take seriously the righteousness with which the American and Israeli governments deliver their pronouncements..

Posted by J S on 12/30/2008 @ 11:31PM PT
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John,
I fully agree that both side must want peace for it to be a reality but Israel economy has historically suffered dramatically during the seize fires and peace time. Israel has systematically committed crimes against people in Gaza to aggravate them to end the peace. Can you imagine the government bulldozing your house in the middle of night for painting your house without a permit and giving your land to a Jewish settler? There have been over 900 of such cases in the last 6 month during the seize fire. People in Gaza are dealing with a criminal regime that is willing to commit mass murder and genocide in order to keep the donations coming. I do not condone what Hamas is doing but keep in mind that they are mostly young people with brothers, sisters or other family members either killed or kicked out of their homes by this criminal regime. I am yet to see anyone with an IQ of over 50 who understand what is going on there disagreeing with this

Posted by barb jackson on 12/30/2008 @ 11:31PM PT
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PS. Here are some more facts (Jerusalem Journal)

In 2004 alone Israel flattened 2,243 houses in Gaza and the West Bank, leaving some 14,000 Palestinians homeless. Bulldozing Palestinian homes under the pretext that the owners lacked building permits is common practice in Jerusalem. Bulldozers also have created massive destruction in the path of Israel’s Separation Wall snaking across occupied Palestine. Their Israeli operators have used them to uproot hundreds of thousands of olive, citrus and other fruit trees, representing the livelihood of Palestinian farmers; destroy hundreds of wells and agricultural storehouses; and tear up roads and block thousands of others with concrete and earthen mounds.

Posted by barb jackson on 12/31/2008 @ 12:36AM PT
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Hamas which controls Gaza is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[11] the European Union,[12][13][14][15] Israel,[16] Japan,[17] and the United States,[18] and is banned in Jordan.[19] (See Wikipedia full definition of Hamas).

This organization according to CNN report launched a rocket which killed 2 Palestinian (!!) girls after Gaza border reopened on December 26, 2008:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/26/israel.gaza.border/index.html

Charles, you might be surprised that Palestinian President Abbas is blaming Hamas for the violence. Another interesting fact is how Israel was able to locate so efficiently the location of Hamas terrorists. Considering that Hamas took over Gaza by force killing the Fatah (President Abbas) military force might hint to where this information came from.

Another issue which is currently in the news is where are the Hamas terrorists currently hiding if Israel is controlling the skies. According to local reports Hamas terrorists are hiding inside hospitals, some dressed as doctors.

Posted by Zorba D. Geek on 12/31/2008 @ 02:52AM PT
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Hamas is aresistance movement trying to free palestine and you know who else considered aterrorist Americans who tried to free America from England and the French who fought Hitler and there was agovernment loyal to Germany and agaist french resistance just like president Abbas and with all the power and technology Isreal had they still kill children and civilians so don't claim its not intentional

Posted by Mohammed Hossam on 12/31/2008 @ 04:08AM PT
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You are welcome to call suicide bombers a resistance movement. However, the above listed countries define them as terrorists.

Was the Palestinian missile killing Palestinian girls intentional?

You can be assured President Abbas is very happy that Israel is doing the dirty work for him. Also Egypt and Jordan are quiet happy that the Hamas will not infect their “democratic countries”. If they weren't they would do something.

Posted by Zorba D. Geek on 12/31/2008 @ 04:23AM PT
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What else do you expect from the puppet and lap-dog of the US and Israel Abbas? Who pays his salary? Moshe Dayan once said "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". Remember Begin, Shamir, and others of the Stern and the Irgun? I have a photo of a wanted poster of wanted terrorists and on the top is the picture of a young M. Begin. You can attach all the labels you want but nothing changes the fact that Israel is the occupying power and boasts of the stromgest military power in the region. It holds the key to ending the violence. This can only happen in one way: ending the occupation (truly ending it not simply evacuating the territory but imposing a hermetic seal on the entire area) and engaging in good faith negotiations with those that are labeled enemy. It is absurd to refuse negotiations with "the enemy". If so let me ask: if you refuse to negotiate with the enemy then with whom do you negotiate? Think carefully about the answer before you provide it because this is not a rhetorical question. It is so easy to get sucked in in the demonization of the "Other", the so-called enemy, and it makes so much easier then to kill and shed blood. If you want to change the situation and truly strive for peace you do not set your moral reference to that of those you claim have no morals you do not descend to that level but set for yourself a much higher standard or morality--not by simply repeating hollow but nice sounding words--but by action. Get the blinders off and see things in all their dimensions not the balck and white propaganda which serves the elite of those who are in power.

Posted by A N on 12/31/2008 @ 04:25AM PT
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400 innocent Palestinian dead in a region with 1 and a half million people in it ... imagine scaling that up to see what that would be like in a country of 300 million (like the US). I make that equivalent to 80000 dead. How would the US feel if that happened to them? 9/11 doesn't even come near. Crimes like that start to raise the question of Israel's legitimacy. Anyway, what is so legitimate about what happened in 1948 when Israel was founded, born out of Zionist terrorism and ethnic cleansing? Yet those who fight back are "terrorists". I don't get it.

Posted by Ed Robertson on 12/31/2008 @ 06:55AM PT
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James, Better than their contemporaries in neighbouring countries.
In addition the Arabs living in Israel support suicide bombers, so how would you suggest Israel treat them? How would you treat people that support terrorists? And don't tell me they are "freedom fighters", anyone intentionally targeting women and children is a terrorist, I don't care how you call them.

Posted by Michael Ross on 12/31/2008 @ 08:49AM PT
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On that one point I agree 'anyone intentionally targeting women an children is a terrorist', in this case a 'terrorist state' named Israel that has murdered numerous women and children, especially when they launch their rockets into schools in Palestinian territory.

So again I am astouded that you state 'Better than their contemporaries in neighbouring countries'. Please show where their homes are blown up with the people in them or without them, where they are denied medical care, where they are denied food and water, where they are dragged from their homes and beaten until their bodies are shattered, where the children are shot at and killed as they walk to school, where their crops are destroyed so they will starve, where they are imprisoned and beaten without due cause, where they shoot bullets in response to rocks, where they humiliate and denegrate young girls by forcing them to strip and then feel their bodies, where they impose curfews that last for weeks at a time and kill violators,...

Mr. Ross it is statements like yours that condone the terrorism of Israel's leaders and settlers and aggravates the continuing conflict and extreme suffering that results. Yes...these Palestinians resist the terrorism of the Israeli occupation and the zealots supporting the expansionism of Israel that requires the ethnic cleansing operation underway for more than 60 years.

Posted by James Appleton on 12/31/2008 @ 01:23PM PT
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Zorba i know that Israel donig the dirty work if only Israel is carageous enough to say so but they deny and Israel deny and remember all those regimes are heartless dectators who are killing their people in the street so i expect that from them

Posted by Mohammed Hossam on 12/31/2008 @ 05:00PM PT
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James, false, false, false all of the above, I can't have a discussion with you if you insist on believing these falsehoods.

ONE MORE TIME, ISRAEL IS A DEMOCRATIC NATION RULED BY LAW AND DOES NOT PARTICIPATE IN CRIMINAL ACTS AS YOU HAVE DESCRIBED.

Their are some settlers that break the law and they are dealt with and punished, this activity is not condoned by the Israeli government.

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_ILdI9N_AY

Posted by Michael Ross on 12/31/2008 @ 05:15PM PT
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Michael, I would like you to answer your own question. The question is in itself is offensive to me, smacks of the same mentality that led to the genocide of Native Americans, slavery and the dehumanization of whomever is currently seen as the enemy by our military. Ignorance is a deficit of the mind, willful ignorance is a deficit of character. My hope for peace lies with the next generation who appear to be more willing to embrace diversity rather than fear it.

Posted by joan Killelea on 12/31/2008 @ 05:32PM PT
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Joan, which one? I have asked many questions.

Posted by Michael Ross on 12/31/2008 @ 05:39PM PT
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The one you asked me, 12/30 @5:36. Ask why no Arab state will allow Palestinians to become citizens ...

Posted by joan Killelea on 12/31/2008 @ 06:54PM PT
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Joan, The Arab states have refused to allow Palestinians to become citizens, because the rulers are all dictators, and as dictators they need an external enemy in order to justify their regime, that is the only reason. They want a continuous war, it helps them stay in power.

Posted by Michael Ross on 12/31/2008 @ 07:51PM PT
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Well he who is bland cannot see.

He who is deaf cannot hear.

Michael Ross you never respond with a specific 'real' example..deny documented accounts easily found if one searches. At a minimum read the books by the people in Israel such as Flappan, now deceased, and Pappe who tells the truth about Israel terrorism.

Look at the testimony out of the mouths of victims:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CG2NPkIKRM

View the photos of the dead children.

Watch the IDF attack children with tanks and bullets.

Frankly you refuse the truth and protect the murderers and torturers of Israel with rhetoric.

From the Israeli Newspaper Haaretz: Last update - 10:17 02/09/2007 Children of war By Gideon Levy Again children. Five children killed in Gaza in eight days. The public indifference to their killing - the last three, for example, were accorded only a short item on the margins of page 11 in Yedioth Ahronoth, a sickening matter in itself - cannot blur the fact that the IDF is waging a war against children. A year ago, a fifth of those killed in the "Summer Rain" operation in Gaza were children; during the past two weeks, they comprised a quarter of the 21 killed. If, heaven forbid, children are hurt in Sderot, we will have to remember this before we begin raising hell.

Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:06:48
Israeli tank fire kills 4 Palestinian civilians including a child.
Four Palestinians including a child have been killed and 25 others injured in the latest Israeli raid on Gaza, medics have said.

Israeli tank fire injured 20 Palestinian students on October 9, killing Tha’er El Howt, a 13-year-old boy sponsored by the humanitarian organization World Vision.

By Nidal al-Mughrabi in Beit Lahiya, Gaza
Saturday, 2 March 2002 Independent.co.uk :A Palestinian boy aged seven playing near his home in the Gaza Strip was killed by gunfire from an Israeli tank yesterday, according to a neighbour who said he saw the shooting.A Palestinian boy aged seven playing near his home in the Gaza Strip was killed by gunfire from an Israeli tank yesterday, according to a neighbour who said he saw the shooting.

Los Angeles, Alta California - 6-22-2002 (ACN) On Friday, Israeli army Merkava tanks fired on a Jenin fruit and vegetable market, killing three children, a male teacher, and wounding 26 civilians who were led to believe that a curfew had been lifted and came out to shop for essential food items. This is one of the worst and most heartless massacres of Palestinian civilians yet by the brutal Israeli Army.

And on it goes..... terrorism is rampant by the Israeli expansionists as it has been for more than 60 years.

Posted by James Appleton on 12/31/2008 @ 08:43PM PT
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I don't find that a compelling argument to continue the financial support of Israel. I thought the point of this was change and advocating more killing does nothing for the future of the planet and children. As an American, my government has done many things that I am ashamed of and I don't even have to look outside of my country to find many of them. I don't believe that all Israeli citizens approve of what their government has done in their name either. I think that profits have more to do with this conflict than prophets. Call your senators and representatives and stop the financial support of Israel, it's a place to start.

Posted by joan Killelea on 01/01/2009 @ 05:07AM PT
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If you don't stop terrorists outside the US, you will have to deal with them when they end up hitting the US. Again.

Posted by Zorba D. Geek on 01/01/2009 @ 09:01AM PT
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Joan, Israel's GDP is $140 billion the US support is $3 billion, 2.14%. Make you your own conclusions as to how much Israel is supported by the US financially.

Posted by Michael Ross on 01/01/2009 @ 09:42AM PT
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Some folks calculate aid to Israel using only the figures for direct military aid. Others however, include 501c3 donations, the indirect tax benefits of such personal aid, the value of Israel bonds purchases by various entities and other various and sundry things.
I'm not saying I agree with the figure given above, only that there is more than one way to calculate the total value of US aid to Israel.

Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/01/2009 @ 09:29PM PT
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"Prior to 1947, the Zionist agenda concentrated on building a political, ideological, cultural and economic enclave within historic Palestine. Now, during these crucial months leading to the UN Resolution 181, it was decided that the time has come to translate these ideologies into realities on the ground. The Zionist leadership openly declared that it intended to take over the land of Palestine and to expel its indigenous population. Their plan was called Plan Dalet.
On 10 March 1948, two months before the so-called Declaration of Independence, the Zionist leadership gathered in Tel Aviv and agreed on Plan Dalet calling for a military campaign against the Palestinians. Over 13 military underground operations were carried out (according to The History of the Palmach archives released in full in 1972) before the Arab forces entered the areas allotted by the UN to the Palestinians in their Partition Plan. Both Menachem Begin and David Ben-Gurion wrote extensively about their underground military campaigns to cleanse Palestinian villages of their indigenous inhabitants.All this was taking place BEFORE Israel existed! The claim that Arab forces invaded Israel is hog-wash. When the Zionist leaders established Israel on 15 May 1948, they purposefully avoided declaring its boundaries in order to open the doors for future expansion, as has been happening since then."

Read-Research: Ethnic Cleansing of Palenstine by Ilan Pappe

The Birth of Israel-Myths & Reality by Simha Flapan

Posted by James Appleton on 01/01/2009 @ 10:32PM PT
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James, please read "The Case for Israel" by Dershowitz, an internationaly acclaimed attorney, then lets talk some more. What you have quoted above is pure fabrication.

Posted by Michael Ross on 01/01/2009 @ 11:08PM PT
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What I have quoted is easily confirmed through multiple reliable sources. The authors of these are scholars who live, or lived in Israel and have thoroughly documented their sources. You reject the truth even when faced with specific evidence. It is equivalent to me with the term 'brain washing' that was employed during the 50's and 60's. Fortunately we have a large population of people who now are learning about Israel's true ambitions and the horrific brutality they employ to achieve the complete ethnic cleansing of Palestine. As a group we may be able to influence the new administration to force Israel to end its aggressive Greater Israel ambition.

Posted by James Appleton on 01/02/2009 @ 04:15PM PT
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James, this is what Benny Morris writes about Pappe, its curious that you pick the one most controversial historian in all of Israel:

"Unfortunately much of what Pappé tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. [...] This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. [...] The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappé's historical methodology and his political proclivities[.] [...] For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable.

Posted by Michael Ross on 01/02/2009 @ 06:54PM PT
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Please do not present Bernny Morris as unbiased, this author of 1948 is very pro Israel accounts as usual typically identifies any Palestinian opposition to Zionism as anti-Semitic (p. 8); he finds some obscure article by some obscure person and yet he does not cite the thousands of Palestinian statements, poems, flyers, and proclamations that clearly expressed opposition to anti-Semitism. He could have bothered checked the private collection of Akram Zu`aytar which contains all that and more, but he did not. And Zionist discussions about the explusion of Arabs from their land is discussed casually by Morris (see pp. 18-19). His account of how Palestinians fared under Zionism is as fictious as was the account in Herzl’s work of fiction, Alteuland. Morris says that Palestinian assets “grew substantially” under Zionism (p. 25). And when he cites outrageous statements by Zionists, he never offers any comments, when he is unrestrained if any Palestinain said anything that bothered him. He again casually cites Ben Gurion when he said about Arabs: “And it is better to expel them than jail them.” (p. 52) And what is hilarious about this book is that–typical of Zionist accounts–there is such love expressed for the Hashemites, presumably due to the their services to Zionism over the decades. (He says that the Jordanian regime “flourishes” (p. 419) under King PlayStation)
.He even maintains that all Arab leaders at the time He even maintains that all Arab leaders at the time suffered from a crisis of legitimacy…except King `Abdullah (p. 66), as if he died from high cholesterol. And the notion that Plan D did not intend to expel Arabs because it did not say so on paper (p. 121) is as ridiculous as the claim by anti-Semitic David Irving when he talks about the smokin’ gun and the Nazis. He admits in the book (twice) that Zionists killed more POWs than the other side did but he always finds excuses to justify the deed and to justify the FACT that more prisoners were killed by Zionists than by the Arabs by talking about Zionist military victories and control of more lands.(p. 153)The conclusion of this propagandistic book is clearly written for the readers in the West in post-Sep. 11 world. He goes on (in a section that is written by the style you read by anti-Islam haters in neo-con media these days) to elaborate on the “Jihadi impulse.” (p. 395) He wants to convince the reader that Palestinian Arab opposition to Zionism was rooted in religious bigotry: as if the Palestinians would have acted differently if their lands were stolen and occupied, say, by Buddhists or Hindus or atheists. But then Morris has to contend with the fact of Palestinian Christian opposition to Zionism. He has to explain it. So what does Morris do here. I kid you not, he says this: “Even Christian Arabs appear to have adopted the Jihadi discourse.” (p. 395) I kid you not. Is that not funny? So George Habash and Nayif Hawitimah and Edward Said and `Azmi Bisharah are all motivated by Jihadi impulses. Thus is Zionist historiogrophy.It is also equally comical when he maintains that the Arabs were stronger than the Yishuv in Palestine. To bolster his case, or to make it sound less ridiculous, he says that they were stronger in “geopolitical terms”(p. 398)–whatever that means. Maybe by that token, Panama is stronger than the US in “geopolitical terms”. He does not shy away from invoking the racist arguments of Patai and others about Arabs: he talks about Arab traditions of “disunity, corruption, and organizational incompetence.” (p. 399) I guess that Olmert is resigning due to the Arab tradition of corruption. And is Morris trying to make us laugh when he refers to the Zionist forces as “ragtag Jewish miltia”(p. 400). Ragtag in comparison to what? The Arab forces with their 19th century rifles in some cases? He does admit that both sides killed civilians but he argues that the Arabs killed civilians “deliberately” while the Zionists did so accidentally or recklessly but provides no evidence for the claim (p. 404). He then adds that massacres decreased after the transformtion of forces on both sides into regular armies but then adds casually “except for the series of atrocities committed by IDF troops…” (p. 405). Is this guy for real?

Posted by James Appleton on 01/02/2009 @ 07:20PM PT
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Even I was able to find some ridiculous claims by Dershowitz in "The Case for Israel." For anyone who actually believes him, I recommend Norman Finklestein's "Beyond Chutzpah." Not only is "The Case" a fraud, large passages are pretty evidently plagerized.

However, for true believers, I guess facts are irrelevant.

Benny Morris provides plenty of evidence that Zionists deliberately killed civilians. To be sure, he tries to gloss over that evidence.

Posted by Kay Swen on 01/02/2009 @ 08:59PM PT
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James, History is a very soft "science" and the further away in time from the events you are the less accurate they become, I will take the '48 Morris for accuracy anytime over the current Pappe.

But all of this is not relevant to the current crisis, which you have not voiced a better solution then the current one now in action.

Posted by Michael Ross on 01/03/2009 @ 11:29AM PT
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James, show me one piece of evidence regarding your grand theory of the "Greater Israel", if anything the opposite is happening during the negotiations with the PA, we have "The Shrinking Israel". This is all pure fabrication on your end, and does not contribute to peace.

Posted by Michael Ross on 01/04/2009 @ 04:52PM PT
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"When Israel signed the armistice agreements with Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, Ben-Gurion stated:"The November 29[, 1947 U.N.] decision had given the Jewish state 14,920,000 dunums; now we have 20,662,000 dunums in our control. While the UN has not yet recognized our borders, Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and Lebanon have done so." (Simha Flapan, p. 49)In other words, Israel managed to expand its borders 38% more than the area allotted to the "Jewish state" by 1947 UN GA partition plan. It should be noted that 60% of the Israelis soldiers were killed in action, were killed in offensive actions in the areas conquered beyond areas allotted by the UN to the "Jewish state." (Simha Flapan, p. 198-199)One day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine, Menachem Begin, the commander of the Irgun and Israel's future Prime Minster between 1977-1983, proclaimed:"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever." (Iron Wall p. 25)Yigal Allon wrote in an article published just before the outbreak of the 1967 war:"In. . .a new war, we must avoid the historic mistake of the War of Independence [the 1948 war]. . . and MUST NOT cease fighting until we achieve total victory, the territorial fulfillment of the Land Of Israel." (Righteous Victims, p. 321)"

Posted by James Appleton on 01/05/2009 @ 07:59PM PT
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James,

Israel is the only nation in history,that was required to give back territory aquired as a result of a war of forced upon her.

Posted by Michael Ross on 01/06/2009 @ 10:05AM PT
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James,

Israel is the only nation in history,that was required to give back territory aquired as a result of a war of forced upon her.

Posted by Michael Ross on 01/06/2009 @ 10:05AM PT
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James, enough with the revisionist history, do you know that Pappe was a card holding member of the Israeli communist party, and that he studied history under the guidance of the Arab historian Albert Hourani.

So quoting Pappe on Israeli history is like quoting Karl Marx on American history. The communists invented revisionist history, give me a break. No facts here at all, they rewrite history to match their ideaology, no alliance to the truth at all.

Posted by Michael Ross on 01/06/2009 @ 03:11PM PT
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Well then let's go with one of your 'acceptable' historians:

Morris suggests transfer ideas “had a basis in mainstream Jewish thinking, if not actual planning, from the late 1930s and 1940s.”7 In Morris’s view, a letter Ben-Gurion wrote to his son Amos on October 5, 1937, shows Ben-Gurion’s willingness to expel the Palestinians by force. Abridging Ben-Gurion’s words, Morris summarizes the letter: “[We] must expel Arabs and take their places…and if we have to use force—not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places—then we have force at our disposal.”8 Morris sees Ben-Gurion as ambivalent at best and willing at worst to use force, if necessary, to kick Arabs out of their homes in order to secure the Jewish makeup of a future State in Palestine.

Posted by James Appleton on 01/06/2009 @ 05:28PM PT
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James, I didn't say I agree with everything Morris wrote, just that he criticised Pappe. I said that history is a soft science and almost impossible to decipher what actually happened. We no more about the dinosaurs then about human history, most of it is myth, that's why I studied engineering.

Anyhow, what is your point of this endless digging into the history of different questionable writers. Find me a quote supporting your hypothesis from Encyclopedia Britannica, then I may look into it seriously, otherwise I trust my schooling in Israel.

You can always dig up someone writing something that supports your twisted view of what happened, and how does that change anything?

Posted by Michael Ross on 01/06/2009 @ 10:19PM PT
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