Right on queue. Those are excellent questions, Michael - but I don't think the answers are what you're implying them to be. 

Jeremy lets assume Iran is a real threat, how do you recommend Israel deal with this threat?

It would behoove you to seek that out on your own because either out of spite, determination, jingoism or whatever - I don't believe anyone here could convince you and I'm done trying. You're here at change.org to defend Israel at whatever cost and the only thing I can do is to point that out for readers.

Jeremy,  that answer is a bit demeaning. Michael asks you for a response and you decide to prejudge him. It appears that you do not really have a formed opinion about what concerns Michael regarding Iran and the current situation.

Just because he has an understanding and a appreciation of Israel's needs and concerns  doesn't put him beyond the pale.

If you are serious then share your opinion and let's dialogue. Isn't that why there is a "post comment" component?
Steve

"Michael asks you for a response and you decide to prejudge him."

I have had enough conversations with Michael about Gaza to have developed a sufficient understanding of where he stands on the issue and the methods he uses to argue. Those methods themselves are dangerous because they are distracting and misleading and I'm attempting to point out the fallacies for other people since Michael has demonstrated he is incapable of realizing they exist and forming better arguments.


"Just because he has an understanding and a appreciation of Israel's needs and concerns  doesn't put him beyond the pale."


This is a gross attempt to make ME look bad by putting words in my mouth. I have not said that Michael has a valuable understanding and appreciation (infact the more he writes, the more I'm convinced the opposite) - nor did I use that as evidence that he is "beyond the pale." This is a stupid argument - which is probably why you're putting it in my mouth.


"If you are serious then share your opinion and let's dialogue. Isn't that why there is a "post comment" component?"


I'm most definitely serious - but I'm tired of Michael's red herrings. I've presented serious propositions and analysis in a rational manner and he has consistently either ignored me (usually), changed the subject (frequently) or dismissed what I've had to say as trite and invaluable - while at the same time wrapping it up in a pretty package calling my "thoughts" philosophical and beautiful as if it makes him look like a reasonable and open-minded man. His rigidity is more revealing.

Jeremy, This is a rather slow site and you need patience when you click post comment. I have learned the hard way. I did not put any words in your mouth. I have my own mouth to deal with let alone someone elses.

The difficulty on this site is that there only a few people that  have any real understanding or experience in the Middle East. Everyone has opinions, some even passionate. But this arena is filled with complexity. Noth in Israel and with the Palestin leadership let alone the rest of the neighborhood. Nothing is as it appears in this part of the world. What is said in Ramallah, Gaza and or Jerusalem is often multi-layered. This is part of the general culture not experienced in the US of A.

Force, power and dominance is unfortunately what the Arab leadership respects most highly. This is part of the cultural outlook. Israel doesn't respond to an attack and/or provocation and the next day on TV in Gaza, Ramallah Tehran the headline is about the "Zionist enemy and its loss of courage and its weakness of will." That is the Middle East and that is what makes any settlement very complex and intricate in addressing.

It is easy to say to Israel just go back to 67 and all will be well. But as we have seen with leaving Gaza it aint necessarily so.

sorry but some of my words were cut off.

"Force, power and dominance is unfortunately what the Arab leadership respects most highly. This is part of the cultural outlook."
Cultural outlook of whom? "The Arabs"?

There are disadvantages trying to see the forest from the trees. While your closeness to the conflict has it's value and uses - so does being from a distance. If I'm wrong about the Gaza situation - it's not because I live in the United States.

While it is true that if one can SEE it matters little where they may be living. However, living in the center of the "action" and knowing that the margin of error is limited and your families life is at stake no has have the luxury of failure.

I come here to talk about peace as a solution - instead of just the end game. It's easy to accuse those of us who are commited to non-violence of just... standing by and putting up with the violence commited by others. Or if you're more clever, you'll say that it's more dangerous because the former is harder to prove. I'd say fighting back is pretty dangerous too, though. Closing the proximity between you and the enemy. Risking retaliation should you fail. 

In the end - when faced with an enemy - you can choose to fight back - or you can find a way to resist/avoid them non-violently. Both scenarios are dangerous. Life is at risk in either case. Neither method will guarantee that you'll live or die. So if you're not sure what the outcome will be (and no one can be SURE) - why not choose the one method that doesn't involve commiting violence yourself? Violence, which no matter how much you think it's ok under certain circumstances - is still unfortunate. 

You're absolutely right, the margin of error is SO sickeningly slim - and that's what makes the decision so hard. Both options take a lot of courage. 

How do I make the decision? I look to the past. I try to see how many times violence succeeded and compare it to how many times non-violence succeeded. There's been a lot of violence in human history - more so the further you go back (signs of progress? signs of a direction we may be going towards?) - but compared to the number of times non-violence solved a conflict - violence is dwarfed. There are many more countries that live in peace than those that go to war. There are many more neighbors who share cups of sugar and milk, than kill the others' dogs. 

From my digging, non-violence has a much better track record... so when I'm faced with danger, and the options are to strike back or... do something else... anything else.... I'm going to play the odds.

Steve, do you watch Israeli television? Or listen to the radio? The satire over there is incredible... from the old Hartzufim to Eretz Nehederet, nothing you'll see here even comes close.

To suggest that living in Israel makes a person somehow more careful not to be flip is just.... wrong. I've seen comedy skits on Israeli TV making fun of war widows and Holocaust survivors for crying out loud. NOTHING is sacred over there.

Hi Charles,
I agree nothing is sacred in the public realm of entertainment and talk radio. Criticism of our own political, social and religious leaders is second to none. We can be incredible severe in our jabs.

 However, this should not be confused with the daily life  we lead. I meet with some of the most wonderful and amazing visionaries living here and speak with the cross-section of three generations. None that I know of confuse their often fierce criticism of Israeli policies, right and left, for the reality of life being a bit more tenuous living here.

I think that if you had lived here raising a family you would appreciate this point.

Israelis generally love life and live it sometimes with amazing  energy. But this tenuousness also forms the character of our people. Often with an outcome that expresses itself in overly self-indulgent, aggressive and self-assured behavior. Over-the-top bluster with an underlying anxiety. It is wonderful living here because the country is multi-cultural and living in the "here and "now" is most evident when stopping to smell the flowers.

We have raised three children in Israel and I must say that I have no regrets as to how they turned out. They are very much integrated into the society but having also lived in the States they appreciate the special blessing of "safety" that the US generally affords the average inhabitant.

But I do think we must be careful not to confuse over-the-top satire for a lack of respect. Laughing at one-self is a bit different then dis-respecting each other. The warmth of friendship and camaraderie in Israel is second to none from anywhere else that I have been fortunate to visit and to live in the world.

Mary,

If you would READ what I wrote then you wouldn't even make the suggestions just pronounced by you. Also, get one thing straight, YOU do not own this site. If the owner wants to stifle free speech then he/she will cut us off.

The last time I looked the name of the site was change.org The problem here is you are not interested in dialogue. All you want is for someone to agree with your faulty logic and seriously flawed look at reality.

Israel IS a REAL Democracy. No one, especially a flawed observer such as yourself is going to change that notion.

I also do not see any where on this site that says that only supporters of Obama need apply.

When you find it in your warm heart to critique your foolish comments about Me and Mr. Ross then I will be more then pleased to share my criticism of Israeli policy. One thing we have in this Democracy is FREEDOM to brutally display our displeasure at our political leaders. If anything your display of putting your leader beyond reproach as  the MESSIAH turns you into a Fascist.

Mary,

If you would READ what I wrote then you wouldn't even make the suggestions just pronounced by you. Also, get one thing straight, YOU do not own this site. If the owner wants to stifle free speech then he/she will cut us off.

The last time I looked the name of the site was change.org The problem here is you are not interested in dialogue. All you want is for someone to agree with your faulty logic and seriously flawed look at reality.

Israel IS a REAL Democracy. No one, especially a flawed observer such as yourself is going to change that notion.

I also do not see any where on this site that says that only supporters of Obama need apply.

When you find it in your warm heart to critique your foolish comments about Me and Mr. Ross then I will be more then pleased to share my criticism of Israeli policy. One thing we have in this Democracy is FREEDOM to brutally display our displeasure at our political leaders. If anything your display of putting your leader beyond reproach as  the MESSIAH turns you into a Fascist.