History will back any claim that Israel has been repeatedly attacked through nation states and non-state actors (PLO and Hamas). I do agree that Israelis have suffered great harm over the decades, and not just from the rockets. If you are discussing proportional injury between the rocket fire from Hamas and the recent invasion into Gaza, I think the numbers alone speak for itself. If that labels me a progressive for pointing that out, so be it.
I would not want to be living in the South of Israel fearing rockets. I also would not like to be living in Gaza where I would be going without electricity, heat and blockaded. Many Israelis I know who did not support the war, were able to get away from it all by going to France for a holiday or Greece. Gazan can't even step over into Egypt, footsteps away from their homes.

You are free to blog what you want; if you are angry at the fact that people viewed the invasion with horror, then I hope you can  understand our point of view. Mary put it well: we in America know little about the Palestinians unless we make it our business to know. Whenever something goes wrong in Israel, it immediately enters mainstream news. The Gaza War was the first time in my memory that Palestinians were represented as people who suffered in the mainstream news. This doesn't erase crimes like Munich or the bombing of civilian buses by militants. It just means that the world is more aware of another side.

I have made every effort to be objective in my comments, and I deliberately address no one here unless they address me first. So
may I ask you a question, Charles--if Israel is in so much fear, why does the military have such prestigious weapons with an armed forces staff that is the strongest in the Mideast? After Gaza, who would WANT to fight Israel? The fear that Israelis deservedly have comes from terrorism, which prompts question 2: why is Israel still a focal point of terror, just as America and Britain are?

Israeli soldiers do home raids in the Gaza and beat Palestinian boys - that grows anger, fear, and eventually terrorism!  If your children were exposed to home bombardment and demolition and 89 controls, and to other types of traumatic events related to Israeli violence think of how you would react.  Palestinian children are growing up with post-traumatic stress, anxiety, and fears.  How can they trust that Israel can ever be a friend to them?  It is time that the US stop supplying weapons to Israel and money.  Maybe if the playing fields were even, Israel would be forced to negotiate and get out of the West Bank and Gaza.

Israel claims Hamas and Iran do not want Israel to exist.  Does Israel want Palestine to exist?  Does Israel want peace?

Obviously the fear of rockets landing on your head is real and tangible. I don't think mentioning it is inappropriate. However, for me, the rockets are secondary to the massacre in Gaza. Had Israel respected the ceasefire and opened the borders and not violated it, they wouldn't have rockets to worry about. I also believe the rockets were a dubious excuse for the operation, therefore focusing on them is playing into the Israeli narrative of response and retaliation for something the Palestinians did, which is false.  And finally, if we want to talk about the psychological effects of the rockets, then I think it's only fair to talk about the psychological effects of mass murder and seeing your family get gunned down in front of you.

Unfortunately, there is little we progressives in America can do but state our opinions, in the hopes that our representatives are listening.
I agree with Mary---it appears Israel isn't interested in peace, at least not long-lasting peace with its neighbors. The start-and-stall peace process has allowed Israel to expand its borders, though to what extent I'm not sure. I think I read that 200,000 Israelis are living beyond the 1967 borders, and land in the region is precious. 
This latest assault on Gaza appears premeditated to have coincided with the administrative transition in the U.S.. Israel has a valid point of view, but its military response was hugely out of proportion. This is not a war that can be "won" with overwhelming force. That Israel employed it anyway seems crass. It seems dismissive of present and future suffering.
Terrorism can not be tolerated, but it can be understood. These rocket attacks are acts of futility, gestures on the part of a people with no voice. What I can't understand is a military might like Israel ravaging a defenseless population, then expecting lucid negotiations, or talk of binary points of view. The Turkish PM was right to walk out of that room in Davos, because everything that was being said was tainted with the lies that exist in the disparity between rhetoric and action.
Perhaps Israel has become hardened to world opinion; there seems to be no other conflict that garners so much attention as the occupation of Palestine. This may explain why Israel prohibited journalists from reporting on the attack. But this stance seems like impunity. Cluster bombs and chemical weapons in a dense urban area? Airstrikes on hospitals and UN compounds? 
It isn't surprising that it all points back to the U.S.. It bears reminding that perhaps a million Iraqi civilians were killed during the American occupation. It's asking for almost superhuman virtue on the part of Palestinians and the Arab community not to hate us, when we support these kinds of actions. And again, it's a kind of hatred that is perhaps impossible to articulate.
 

Susan, Q2 "why is Israel a focal point?" Why were 6,000,000 Jews murdered, because they were Jews.

Israel is attacked today because it serves the interests of Iran, the same way the Jews served the interests of the Nazi's in 1939, not because Israel has done anything wrong as you are implying by this question, but because Israel is in the Middle East, the heart of the Arab world and they do not want a Western presence here, you are backing the wrong guys Susan.

If Iran did not supply money and arms to Hamas and Hizbellah their would be no terror attacks.

The rest of you need to study up on your history to say that Israel does not want peace is patently absurd, and I am not going into the details of the peace process that started over 60 years ago, and was initiated by Israel.

The fact that this is an anti-Israel blog and it draws the worst of the anti-Israel people does not change the reality of the rest of the world. You should have listened to President Peres makes his case at the recent convention in Switzerland, those of you that still have an open mind, it was amazing, and is still available on CSPAN.

"The Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be resolved when - and only when - there is a broad enough majority of both Israelis and Palestinians to end it."

I will try to respond to this statement. Being an Israeli I can tell you categorically that right now today, that majority in Israel exists. The majority of Israelis want nothing more than to live in peace with their neighbours.

We left Gaza with the idea of Gazans developing further the agricultural base we left them, build commerce together and live in peace with them. It was wishful thinking on our side, and a minority of Israelis warned us of that, that this experiment will not work, and I am sad to say that they were right.

Their are other influences in the area, that do not want peace, it is these elements that are causing the strife and war not the majority Israelis and not the majority Gazans or West Bank Arabs.

These elements are Ha-mas and Hizballah both proxies of Iran and Syria, yes, yes I know what you will say, Ha-mas was elected. But was this a free and secret ballot as we have in the West? I think not. After this so called election, Ha-mas killed several hundred Fatah, the opposition, so it is not a fair argument, that this is a democratically elected party reflecting the interests of the majority of the people, the opposite, Ha-mas are acting in the interests of Iran, and are being paid by Iran.

Take Hamas out of the picture and then Charles's statement above will come true.  The majority Israelis are here now, and we want peace.

Michael, my question was to Charles, not to you. I am not anti-Israel or anti-Israeli.  And I don't think this is an anti-Israeli blog--Charles tries to cover many sides. I respect Uzi's comment as I too, have seen the same among Israelis--they want peace and they grow tired of the constant struggle. I don't agree with many of Israel's recent governmental policies, but disagreement does not qualify as "backing the wrong horse". I don't support Hamas, but the Palestinian people--Hamas hasn't done much for them lately, nor has Fatah.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Israel cannot be right all the time.Palestinians cannot be right all the time. America is not right all the time. When a man named Osama Bin Laden decides that he wants my country destroyed, I ask why. When Iran calls my country the Great Satan, I ask why. When I go abroad and I'm told I am stained with the blood of Iraqis, I ask why. When I see that our allies question our judgment, I ask why. When I see Spaniards blown up as they take the train to work, I ask why. Yes, there are psychopaths out there. But there are people who resent my government and act out the only way they feel they can. I excuse none of it. But I want to know why. And the axis of evil argument is too neat--if Iran didn't exist, I think there are people out there who would have to invent one.

I know history very well. I may not share the same interpretations. History is often written by the victors, and to be a true scholar of it, one has to read many analyses, not simply the one that tells the reader what he or she wants to hear.

I had a girlfriend once who was right all the time. Didn't last....

I guess you were wrong....

I had a girlfriend who left me because I was always right ;>)

However it may be viewed, those are just the plain fact here: they are all those things BUT they are a definitive threat to those who are under fire in southern Israel. I do not think that it is any intention of any "progressive" to belittle the mortality of the Israeli but rather to show the sheer brutality of the IDF in its ruthless to "wipe out" the ability of Qassams to be continually fired. What I find more routinely offensive is the omission of (a) the occupation and (b) the siege, as if this were between two states with two armies with bitter hatred and Israel were just unprovoked. Now both narratives have their own story and both have big parts here so both do share the role of aggressor and victim.

But there definitely is a stark disparity between the two that is always ignored. I remember a spokesman from the David Project was peeved because residents from Sderot had to take 15 second showers for fear of the rockets. "No one has to live like this." I definitely hope no one has to either but the empathy for Gazans is altogether lost, or even the story of Gaza in the first place (nah, they aren't refugees, and yeah their infrastructure was like a "Dubai on the Mediterranean"). Rest assured, if the situation is so dire and if Gaza was so rosy, switch places. A fifteen second shower with all the freedom from the authorities and all the food you can eat seems tip-top when you cannot feed your own children and take them to school because you fear for their lives.

That is all. Luckily Israelis HAVE an army that they can depend on to wilfully annihilate their perceived enemies. The Palestinians have militias with those crude rockets that terrorise a nation with nuclear weapons. (Care to trade?)

Charles, I feel IF the Palestinians in Gaza had a bigger deterrent than the IDF would not have undertook their scorched-earth policy in Gaza.

I bet people in Gaza would love a shower about now.   A little electricity so they can have light at night would be great too!   A little freedom to travel across the "borders" to earn money or "permission" to fish in the Meditteranen - maybe if they had those things, they wouldn't feel the need to toss rockets that land in the sand.  

While you are supporting the innocent Gazans, their "elected" officials Hamas are in Teheran recruiting Iranian students:

On the third day of his talks with Iranian leaders in Tehran, Hamas' supreme leader Khaled Meshaal urged Iranian students to join his Islamist movement in helping liberate all of Palestine, secure the return of all Palestinians and retake Jerusalem so that "we can pray together."

Tehran's aggressive line ensured that the talks Hamas representatives are holding in Cairo on a long-term ceasefire will stall and the missiles will keep coming from Gaza against Israel.

www.debka.com

So Uzi, Israel can conscript an army and Meshaal cannot attempt to recruit volunteers for his army? "Teheran's aggressive line" is rather mute by the looks of things: have they bombed Israel at all? (You would like to think they do this through Hamas, no?) "[S]ecure the return of all Palestinians and retake Jerusalem" seems to fall in lines of those UN Resolutions that Israel conveniently ignores. Jerusalem MUST be part of a Palestinian state, no?The rest seems like rhetoric; how successful can Meshaal be? Like I said earlier, "The Palestinians have militias with those crude rockets that terrorise a nation with nuclear weapons. (Care to trade?)"

Has Israel ever considered peace and living as friends with Arabs?  Since 1948 the Arab Muslims have not had equal rights and treated only as third class citizens.  Why does Israel have a strong military and their own nuclear weapons but think that Iran and the Arab states should have no means of protecting themselves from Israel? 

If US did not give so much money, weapons, support to Israel, maybe Israel would learn to get along with their neighbors instead of playing the king of the area.   Before 1948 Arab Muslim and Arab Jews lived together.  Since the European Jews moved and changed the name to Israel, it has been only hate.  It is easy to understand why Iran and the Arab states don't like Israel.

Joshua, FYI since the foundation of modern Israel, the Palestinians with "crude" suicide bombers and other methods have murdered 3,678 innocent women and children. In US terms that would be equivalent to over 200,000 people or one 9/11 terror act every year for the last 62 years. Care to trade?

Mary, You got it all wrong, its the Arab states that attacked Israel, therefore Israel was forced to develop a strong military to protect itself. Read your history.

Uzi - how many innocent Arabs - Lebanese and Palestinian - have Israelis killed?   Or do those numbers matter - and if you prorate those numbers, it far surpasses the 3,678 Israelis?   Back in 1948 the Zionist immediately started killing Palestinians - do you think that started the problem?  The Arab states all voted against giving Palestine to Jews in 1948.   To go before 1948 is irrelevant today - just like citing the Halocaust as a defense is irrelevant - the Arab states were not responsible for the Halocaust, but I still hear it as some kind of defense for Israel's current actions.   If Israel wanted real peace and were a real democracy, they would be giving all their Arab citizens the same rights they have and then maybe they wouldn't need to be so defensive. 

This numbers and blame game can go on for an eternity. It's an exercise based on points of view - one side believing the other to be evil. 
Long lasting peace comes from forgiveness and compromise in the form of self-sacrifice. It's not easy and it will take a long while - probably a generation. The only way violence will "succeed" is if one side is obliterated - and by that point, the victor has become morally bankrupt and become what it perceived the enemy to be. 

Mary, wrong again, Israel is the only democracy in the middle east (excluding Turkey) that have Arab representatives in its parliament the Knesset.

Again I don't know who is feeding you this twisted information.
No Zionists started killing Palestinians, you are being fed Arab propaganda, lies and distortions, if you are serious about studying this part of the world, you need to look for more reliable sources.

Uzi - the question was how many innocent Arabs (Palestinians/Lebanese) have Israelis killed but you jumped right into 1948 statements.   You ignored that.  Stick to today - the past is gone.  This is not a history lesson where only one side gets to tell.Jeremy - your are right - peace requires forgiveness and feeling compassion for the other side.  Thinking of the Palestinians as the enemy to destroy does not make Israelis a better people or solve anything.

Mary, you cannot disconnect from the past, what is happening today is part of the past.

Lets talk about today in Gaza, as we speak Ha-mas are smuggling into Gaza more rockets, more mortars, more guns, all for what? To kill and murder innocent women and children. Read the Ha-mas charter, Ha-mas the body the Palestinians elected, are dedicated to killing all the Jews, so please tell me how can we negotiate peace with someone dedicated to killing all of us?

I am open to ideas, from you also Jeremy.

Likewise for the Palestinians. Rocket fire and suicide bombers may or may not be self defense, but regardless, they need to forgive the Israelis for the violence and coercion they've committed.
It goes both ways.
Neither side will win a moral battle for having more casualties and presenting themselves as the bigger "victim." You lose your victim status when you start killing - especially killing those who had little to do with the initiation of violence.

Jeremy - that is easy for you to say and the Israeli who had a hot shower this morning, a warm breakfast and can send his kids to a school building to study with books.  If your children were recently killed, your home destroyed, and you were kept like a prisoner in your city, you would not be suggesting Israel and Gazans are equal in this today.  The palestinians are the obvious victim and thanks to the US, Israel the one with the power. 

It is like telling the child with the big abusive father to forgive and forget.

It's almost exactly like telling a child to forgive and forget his abusive father - I would also tell him to remove him/herself from the situation - seek safety in the arms of other loved ones. I wouldn't suggest that the child kill his/her father or fight back in any way. That's just begging for another spanking or worse.

I'm sorry, Mary, but launching rockets is only going to provoke Israel into committing more excessive retaliations. Israel is using Hamas attacks as an excuse to do what they're doing. Remove the excuse, and if Israel continues to attack, you reveal it for what it truly is and if they don't - you win.

The same goes for Israel. As long as they lay siege on Gaza and the West Bank - they will continue to see rocket fire and suicide bombers. It's a cycle and it only takes one side to break the cycle. Tell both sides to do it, and you increase your odds of success. But it doesn't just work with the cessation of violence either. Not only do you have to stop hitting the sibling, you have to apologize. You have to give the other side a reason to trust you and love you. Both sides are capable. 

If you feel Israel is imperialistic and encroaching on too much Palestinian land - look at how Gandhi removed Britain from India. If you think it's an issue of race inequality - look what people like Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr. did for African Americans in the US. It's not violence that solves conflict, it's Love + Civil Disobedience, or what Gandhi coined as... Satyagraha.

Mary, if you harbor terrorists, or criminals you are not innocent, you are a criminal under any law in any country, for one.

Second, sending rockets on women and children is a war crime.
Third hiding behind human shields is a war crime.

You have it reversed, the Gazans are the terrorists and supporters of terror and the Israelis are the victims.

You need to get your facts straight before offering such extreme opinions.

Jeremy, you surprise me, forget the laws, from a purely moral point of view, how can you support firing rockets indiscriminately on civilians? How can you support using human shields, these are universal morals all humans abide by, just like cannibalism is outlawed and incense, by piratically all cultures.

What you fail to see in this conflict is the simple basic fact. Their are good guys and bad guys, the two sides are not morally equivalent.

One are terrorists and the other innocent civilians. Ha-mas by definition are a terror group recognized as such by most nations.

Israel is a modern democratic nation, with the rule of law.

Uzi - as you sit in Israel in your home on your computer - you spread lies.   Hamas using children as shields is a known Israel lie - just like the garbage of the 72 virgins at death lie.   Israeli soldiers beating Gaza boys is known too.  Rockets killing women and children - isn't that what Israel did recently in Gaza?   Sounds to me like Israelis are terrorists.   Why doesn't Israel give up their nuculear weapons if they want peace?  Why is Israel allowed shipments of weapons into their country while calling it smuggling when the Gazans do it?

Ever since that horrible invasion in Lebanon two years ago, Israel lost me.   Thank God after the Gaza invasion last month, many Americans are looking at Israel very differently.  62 congressman last week signed a letter to Hillary Clinton to stop Israel from continuing the sactions against Gaza.  My US Jewish friends are seeing it differently too and upset at your actions.    

Mary, you are the one spreading the lies as you sit at home on your computer, come and visit Sderot in Israel and see the damage.

Ha-mas using human shields is a well documented fact, by the UN and other neutral observers.

You and your good willing friends are on the wrong side of this fight, on the wrong side of the law, we need to fight terror together, you need to support Israel in this effort, because you will be the next victim of Iranian terror.

THE TRUTH ABOUT THE UN SCHOOL:

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Did_Israel_Shell_a_UN_School_The_Truth_Exposed.asp

What a beautiful microcosm we have here in this thread - it's truly a treasure. To see you both juxtaposed in a never ending circle of blame is illuminating. 

You both are unable to accept the faults of your own side and see the virtues of the other. How you two are so alike - that alone is reason enough to get along. We are all brothers and sisters with the instincual desire to compete, but the spiritual power to love eachother. It's your choice which one you embrace.

What sort of democracy is Israel, if exactly half the state's residents don't benefit from it? Indeed, can the term "democratic" be applied to Israel if many of the residents live under a military regime or are deprived of civil rights? Can there be democracy without equality, with a lengthy occupation and with foreign workers who have no rights? And what about the racism?  If you prefer a one state solution over a two state solution, why have sanctions and restrictions on only non-Jewish?

Why do Arabs have different colored ID cards and driving plates than the Jewish there?   Your idea of modern democratic nation is not my idea of one.   You seem oblivious to the suffering of any people in that part of the world that are not Jewish.

If Uzi is telling us a typical Jewish person in Israel's view of the conflict, then there will be no real peace for a long time.  In the US we needed to feel the Black man's pain and enact laws to correct racist inequalities before we could start erasing the hate - hence the Civil Right Movement in the 60's which we got to see on TV for the first time.

Jeremy, based on your photo, you surround yourself with an ideal world in an ideal landscape, if only the real world were so idyllic.

But, we have killers and terrorists, that have been indoctrinated in Midrasas from early childhood, brainwashed to kill and murder those that are not like them. They were not born evil but taught evil, and to change years of such brain washing is extremely difficult.

There's a good chance that if a number of black people did kill over 200,000 whites that the American people would respond similarly, that doesn't make it right. There's no double standard.
I also never said a thing about the Japanese internment camps and certainly nothing about approving of it - I don't hold my country up on a pedestal as you do yours. There's no need to put words in my mouth. 

These analogies address fundamental similarities between events that are seemingly disimilar, that's what analogies do. To do otherwise would defeat the point of analogies. 
What's similar between the African American example and what's going on in Israel is the fact that a majority of a population associated with one another by [insert skin/hair color, religion, politics, ideology, intelligence, class or whatever here] are being punished based on a series of misunderstandings about that group - for example, many believed in the US that blacks were sub-human and in Israel - many believe the Gazans are purely evil. Both are myths perpetuated as excuses for immoral treatment of these people. That's not to say that there aren't Islamic fundamentalists there, and black-panthers here.... it's the fact that an whole population has been found guilty based entirely on association. That's wrong. That's racist/classist... whatever-ist. 
You say you had many good encounters with Arabs in the 50's and 60's. That's proof that they have the capacity to love and live in peace. Instead of killing them - nourish that side of them that wants peace. It's there - you've seen it. 
You blame Arafat and Hamas leaders for the violence - then if they're guilty, apprehend them - why hold all Palestinians accountable for being "brainwashed" as you say. Un-brainwash them - or more realistically - don't allow their children to also be brainwashed. Give the children of Palestine a reason to love you, AND don't give them a reason to hate you - such as bombing their home because their parents may have made a mistake. They wont understand. 

One final thought Jeremy,

I never said that the Gazans are pure evil, now you are putting words in my mouth.

You wrong in assuming that a whole population is punished because of a series of misunderstandings, that may have been true for the way Americans treated blacks, but not the case in Israel.

Their have been no misunderstandings about suicide bombers, they killed our children pure and simple. It is a very simple case of a criminal element, trying to get away with murder by lying to the rest of the world about its legibility, and you are buying these lies.

Their is no moral compatibility between murderers and their victims.

You didn't say exactly that Gazans are pure evil ...

In a response of yours to Mary: "You have it reversed, the Gazans are the terrorists and supporters of terror..."

Then to me: "What you fail to see in this conflict is the simple basic fact. Their are good guys and bad guys, the two sides are not morally equivalent. One are terrorists and the other innocent civilians."

Your consistent language of absolutes helped me draw the obvious conclusion regarding your beliefs: Gazans = bad guys. 

There may be no "moral compatibility between murderers and their victims" but there is between peoples who are both murderers and victims at the same time. 

I need to get some sleep Jeremy, your mistake is that we have "two peoples both murderers" Only the Palestinian terrorists are murderers, not the Palestinian people, and definitely not the Israeli people. So their is no moral equivalency.

We have murderers that should be stopped and we have innocent people on both sides, that's your mistake, you are equating a whole group of people with the terrorists.

Jeremy, I'm not confused you said: "but there is between peoples who are both murderers and victims at the same time." 

You are lumping whole ethnic groups into one category. Murdered and victims, and that is not the case, you are not distinguishing between the terrorists ie Ha-mas and the population they live with.

The Ha-mas have to be treated like criminals, once they are out of the way, we can talk peace.

The mistake everyone is making is treating the Ha-mas like a legitimate entity, and they are not, they seized power by force, they are a militant Islamic fundamentalist group intent on destroying Israel, even at the cost of the local inhabitants.

I attended a screening of the film Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land - US Media & the Israeli Palestinian Conflict last night.  It was held at a small Unitarian Universalist Church in my neighborhood.  They show films on the first Tuesdays of the month, this was the largest group I had seen.  The hopeful part of this was my neighborhood is in Dallas Texas, new home to Bush as well as many, many, many military defense contractors.  The slaughter in Gaza, or whatever anyone wants to call it, may have been a turning point.  My suggestion is continue to spread the word about this film and show it in small group settings that can be followed with discussions and action plans to stop American aid funding the occupation.

Joan, its only a good movie if you are looking to reinforce your already anti-Israel view. This movie shows Israel's actions in the West Bank without showing the reason and causes for such action.

What it does not show are the thousands of Israeli's murdered by suicide bombers and terrorists coming from the West Bank. That is the single only reason for Israeli's control over that territory.

Israel has no reason to run the lives of over one million Arabs.

Jeremy, finally we agree, Israel has no reason what so ever to be in the West Bank or Gaza, and is not interested in controlling the lives of over one million Arabs.

THE ONLY SINGLE REASON ISRAEL IS THEIR IS TO PROTECT ITS CITIZENS FROM ARAB TERROR.

Once the Palestinians refrain from terror peace will be possible.

/facepalm

I want to see you for just one minute under mortar attack, have your best friends murdered by a suicide bomber, not sleep for years because you have to run into a shelter every few hours, have your grandparents all four of them murdered, then you will trash all your none violence nonesense ideology.

Disgust! You should be ashamed! Supporting the supporters of terrorists.

The failure of Gazan's to take responsibility for their actions.

If for example parents of two children decide one day to murder their neighbors and are sent to jail as a consequence, their children are sent to a foster home were they suffer. Who is responsible for the kids mishap, the parents or the government that put them in the foster home?

In Gaza we have a similar situation. The Gazans knowingly elected a gang of murderers, Ha-mas to solve their problems with the neighbors. Ha-mas promised them they would send these new rockets they got from Iran, thousands of them into Israel. Israel will leave and they will all have Israel for themselves. The Gazans bought into this fantasy. One, two, three, eight years went by 11,000 rockets and mortars, Israel is still there.

Now finally when Israel decides to put a top to this nonsense, everyone gets upset when the kids of these parents that voted for the murderers get hurt.

So who is responsible the parents or the Government of Israel protecting its citizens from murderers?

Both. 

It's not the child's fault that his/her parents were murderers. It's not the Palestinian children's fault that some of their parents launched rockets. Why should they have to suffer in a poor government facility and from military bombardment and economic suppression and social inequality because of what their parents did?

You CAN have your pie and eat it too. You CAN get justice AND ensure the well-being of innocents. They're not mutually exclusive. 

Maybe in your ivory tower world, not in the real dirty world. 

Tell us here in Israel how to neutralize Ha-mas when they hide behind women and children, store their bombs and rockets in schools and mosques. Fire from behind children, we do not want to harm children, but we also want to keep our children safe.

So if you have a better solution, please come here to Israel and show us how, I will arrange a round trip and stay at a luxury Gaza hotel for you.

Jeremy = you are wasting your time rationalizing with Uzi and Mike.  In 2008 4 Israelis died from rockets and I don't find numbers on suicide bombers for 2008, but they keep saying 1,000 deaths!  They won't mention the number of Palestinians that died though.  You can't debate with people that keep coming back with fictional numbers.  I never read of suicide bombers killing children - adults are just as bad - but they seem to think saying it is children dying will have more impact on you.  There is not factual information that Hamas uses children as shields (unless you want to read an Israeli paper and use that as fact but if you do, you probably believe Cheney too).  Israel killed more children than Hamas did in 2008.  

You forget - Israel is not the victim - they are the occupier.  If they got out of Gaza and West Bank back in 1972, maybe there would be peace by now.  They are at peace with Egypt and Jordan since then.  They still persist in building settlements in the West Bank, they don't treat Palestinians as full citizens.  The sanction in Gaza are inhumane.  They are defensive to a large extent because of their own actions that they persist in perpetuating.  The victims are the Palestinians that live under their rule and in poverty.  How many Palestinians have been beaten by Israeli soldiers?  Where is your compassion for them?  You can see on this blog along what Israelis think of Palestinians and they are not trying to make peace with them.  Blaming Hamas for all their actions is not a step toward a solution or peace.  Hamas is not in the West Bank - what is their excuse for not getting out of there?  There are 3.5 million Palestinians.

STRAWBERRIES IN GAZA:
by
Shimon Peres, President of Israel


http://daledamos.blogspot.com/2009/02/video-shimon-peres-tells-it-like-it-is.html

http://gaia.world-television.com/wef/worldeconomicforum_annualmeeting2009/default.aspx?sn=7017&lang=en

You need to listen to the beginning - listening to Pres Peres only does not tell what the process was.

Israel needs to take maximum restrain there are told to enable the peace process!

The discussion at the World Economic Forum on Gaza last Thursday pertains to incidents only since June 2008 - you cannot start listening where Peres starts talking and understand what the discussion is trying to accomplish.  goal is to achieve peace in the region and bring together the leaders.  Listen to the whole discussion of the four on the panel. (see link above)

Michael - why did you only give the Israelis killed?   Don't Palestinian deaths mean anything to you?  Do you live in Israel?  In Chicago the number murdered in 2008 alone was 278 people.

Pres. Peres at the forum didn't give as intelligent response as the other participants.  Goals cannot be met through military means!

Mary their are 300 million Americans and 5.5 million Israelis, 54.55 times more Americans, so in American lives that would be a total of: 181,815 a lot more than 278, don't you agree, that is more than all the soldiers that died in Vietnam!!!!!

I live in the US, have two children and three grandchildren that all live in Israel, and I worry every day, that some crazed suicide bomber won't kill them, for no reason at all.

Every life is just as sacred as another, but you have to remember, Israel is the defender and the Palestinians the aggressor. One intentionally murdering women and children, its in their charter, yes not just Hamas's, and the other Israel. Israel has never intentionally harmed a single child.

So please do not equate the two, it pains me to see the naivete of you and Jeremy, people obviously with good intentions that do not have a clue of what really is going on.

Michael - you don't want any peace.   If you had children living in Gaza, you would worry more about crazed Israelis.  You are racist and cannot see that Arabs have the same rights to peace and safety that you want - you seem to think Jews in that area are superior to the Arabs/Muslims. 

Israel needs to make big changes if they want to ever have true peace.   They are the occupier.  Why can't they try to live as one big state with everyone enjoying the same lifestyle, same jobs, houses next to each other?  "True, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has recognized the continued discrimination of the Arab population on several public occasions in the last year, and has frequently spoken of the need for a change. Still, there is a difference between words and actions. In practice, little has changed. "(Jpost)

What they have been doing obviously does not work.  The US needs to stop giving them unconditional money, support, and weapons.   It has not helped.  This is about CHANGE.  

Why is Israel denying aid to the Gazans and seizing humanitarian ships?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090205/wl_nm/us_palestinians_israel_lebanon_vessel_2

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/05/mideast/05mideast-423682.php

So Mary you think that a suicide bomber is not crazy, hmmm?

On the other hand you deem Israelis as "crazed" now who is the racist??

You equate innocent civilians to suicide bombers, what kind of a world are you coming from?

The more you speak the more I doubt you are Mary Richards, my guess is that you are Muhamed Raza, trying to rally the troops for your cause on this blog.

You are the one that needs CHANGE a change in your anti-Semite attitude, Mary.

Wow - Michael, why are you on this site?   You don't want change.  do you support the inhumane sanctions that Israel holds over GAZA?  Do you support the building of more settlements in the West Bank?   Do you support killing Palestinian children?   What is the change you support?  

Vlasta - To cite incidents that happened 120 years ago does not justify the sanctions and methods that Israel uses today.   If you live in the US, you know that a lot has changed here since the Civil Rights movement.  To bring them up now would be just as useless as discussing black history to solve the economy in the US.   Change means you need to look at things differently and decide what will solve the problem today.  Why should Arab countries be responsble for Gazans - because they speak the same language?  So all English speaking countries are responsible for each other?  It is such a cop out to try to blame other Arab countries for the situation that Isreal caused.  Why do you see Arabs and Jews as different?  Palestinians lived in Palestine before 1948.   Why should they need to go anywhere?

Wow - Mary, why are you on this site, your name is more likely Mustafah or Muhamed, you only speak of hate towards the Jews and Israel in such a virulent way, that will never in your life promote peace.

On the other hand I have a stake in Israel, most of my family live their and I happen to have learned through experience that lying about the history and giving in to Palestinian demands will not further the peace process, the opposite.

Israel is just in its war against terror and must stand firm against ridiculous demands from the Arabs. That is the only Way towards peace.

Look who achieved peace already, Begin from the right with Egypt and Rabin from the center with Jordan, both assassinated for their courage.

The Left that you support have never achieved peace agreements with anyone.

Those who do not know history are bound to repeat it!  It is important to know how the problems were created and how different people tried to solve them.   Basically ALL people are born with same rights and responsibilities.

However, there is a difference in CULTURES.   There are cultures that are geared toward education and creation, and there are cultures who often promote oppression and destruction.   Hamas' goal is DESTRUCTION of Israel, rather than creation of independent Palestinian state in peace with Israel (it says so in their Charter).  Israel' goal is to create a place where Jews can live without being an oppressed and endangered minority (as it has been through the 2 millenia of diaspora).  If you knew history, you would know that Israeli Jews were fighting for Israel' survival since 120 years ago when Theodor Herzl came to realization that there is a dire need for Jews to have their own state.  Zionism is an expression of that desire to create and maintain such a state.   There are many non-Jews who live in Israel and enjoy its creative achievements.   Israeli Arabs (both Muslim and Christian), other Christians, Bahais, Budhists and others.  When East Jerusalem was under Jordan, no Jew was allowed to live or even visit in the Old City and synagogues were demolished in 1948.  Christian places were badly neglected.  Under Israel, all the holly places are well taken care of by the state.   Just look at the Dome on the Rock and Holly Sephulcur! There are no Jews (and very few Christians) left in Arab countries (except in Iran, where they are probably not allowed to leave).

Jews are more than willing to share those achievements (especially in science and technology) with their Arab neighbors.  Since Egypt and Jordan finally decided to bury their hatchet against Israel (after being whipped in 1973 war and Sadat's brave journey to Jerusalem), there are numerous examples of joint projects that benefit everybody involved.  As President Peres said in his speech in Davos, Israel gave 20 million dollars to develop strawberry farm in Gaza...it was destroyed by Hamas, although it would have benefited many Gazans.   There were also attempts to build housing for Palestinian refugees but any Plaestinian that coopoerates with Jews is killed or maimed...Fear keeps many in line!

Yes, in 1948 there were ~600,000 Arabs from Israel who fled (mostly with a promise of return) when the Arab armies attacked Israel after the proclamation of independence of Israel by UN.  However, about equal number of Jews fled (mostly were kicked out) from Arab countries, such as Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Egypt and others.   Jewish refugees were settled in Israel, even when they did not speak the same language (Hebrew was revived in order to create linguistic unity in Israel) or had same culture.  In many ways, the Jews coming from Arab countries are similar to Arabs culturally.  The oriental Jews are sometimes at disadvantage.  Although Israel is the most egalitarian society I have experienced 30 years ago, every society suffers from some sort of discrimination...C'ete la vie!

In contrast to Jewsih refugees, the Arab refugees were kept in refugee camps.  Elsewhere in the world, more than 2 million Hindus left Pakistan and 2 million Muslims left India when India was partitioned in 1948.   All over the world, wars create refugees.  That is the unfortunate result of wars (right now, there are 2 millions refugees from Iraq war, and many more from Darfour).  For  most part those refugees are helped to settle (certainly those which resulted from WWII and its aftermath of countries creation).  Most Arab countries were a part of British Empire or Turkish Empire.   They all speak the same language and have similar culture.   Unfortunately, Palestinians (who started calling themselves that way only after 1967 war) were kept in refugee camps and billions of dollars were given to them through UN.  The birthrate is the highest in the world and what was 600,000 in 1948 is 7 million now...

This is an ecological problem also, unless they learn to be like Singapore, Hong Kong or Switzerland.  However, the Swiss do not tie dynamite belts to their kindergartners and teach them songs glorifying death to the Jews and becoming  martyrs while killing as many Jews as possible.   Unfortunately, under Hamas, those children are taught to hate, rather than create.  Education is the key of any culture and the success of the society depends on the quality of education.   As soon as Hamas changes its charter in accepting Jews and Israel, and stop launching rockets, there will be peace.  Listen to President Peres speech.  He is a great guy who was one of the old Israeli heroes, just like Rabin was.

Michael Ross' comments are very pertinent since he knows the situation on the ground, rather than just in abstract terms as most of the people here...

to Mary Richards:  What would you do if the rockets were falling on your home and were launched from Canada or Mexico.  Would you expect US government to restrain itself for 8 years and keep telling those who shoot rockets on us:  Please stop!  Please stop!   There were so many warnings given to Hamas to stop their rockets, which were greeted with more rockets, and killing of Israelis and their property. 

If you listened to President Peres speech, in which he read excerpts from Hamas' statements and writings, Abbas and Mubarak statements blaming Hamas for the war, you would understand that Israel tried everything to stop Hammas.  Finally, when 1 million people in Israel could not accept life under rocket barrages, Israeli army came to Gaza (not to kill Palestinians) to destroy rocket launchers.  I am sure that ANY  country of the world that  had 8 years of thousands of rockets falling in its territory would do much more and much sooner than Israel did after years of restraint.   Just think about what would American or Chinese military do if rockets were launched against their countries for 8 years!  Tibetans were brutally killed last spring just for peaceful demostration against Chinese occupation of Tibet!  I am positive that they would not restrain themselves for such a long time.   Why do you judge Israel by a different standard?  Why do Jews in Israel have to be better than people in other countries when it comes to defending themselves?

How do you negotiate with somebody who wants your people exterminated and the country for which you sweated and gave blood destroyed?   Palestinians are the victims of their choices.  When PLO changed from a terrorist organization to a government (even if it was corrupt and undemocratic) negotiations became possible.  The choice is THEIRS!  Most ordinary people and children don't have much choice when organizations like Hamas decide who lives an dies and who gets fed.   Fear keeps them in line!

Great analysis Stephen, Israel is on track to be one of the first nations to be a none oil consumer.

The infrastructure for an entirely electric grid for electric automobiles is being built as we speak. You may have heard of the Israel entrepreneur Agasi that is spearheading this venture, several countries have signed up already.

www.betterplace.com

Shai Agasi's web site, for alternative energy, check it out, Stephen.

DREAM OF PEACE AND OIL-FREE WORLD
---------------------------------------------------------------
Why not?   Oil is a source of a big trouble in the Middle East and anywhere where it is drilled...just look at what Shell and other companies did in Nigeria or in South America.   The oil makes a few rich guys and most of the population gets poorer and lose their sustainable livelihoods.  In addition, money from oil is mostly squandered on obscene life styles and weapons to keep their impoverished populations in fear so that they do not revolt.   The money spent for weapons could solve all the people and environmental problems of the region.   USA should STOP exporting arms of any sort anywhere...there is already enough of killing machines made in USA distributed all over the world, making us all unsafe.  The geniuses who are now working for large military contractors in inventing better and more powerful killing machines could use their ingenuity in making the deserts bloom and capture the energies of sun and wind.

Energy and sustainable land development (with stabilization of population) is the key to peace.  People who are well fed and have a good life are less likely to be desperate to commit suicide bombing missions.  We could make the entire Earth run on green energy (sun, wind, geothermal, small hydro etc.).   In addition to Shai Agassi web check also www.arava.org where right now important work is done for peace, where they teach Arab and Israeli youth about preserving their environment.

The entire area could be transformed into a new Garden of Eden for ALL the people living there of any religion and nationality... That is the Biblical dream of the Jews:  Then will the swords be melted into pruning hooks and they will teach war no more.  Every person will be sitting under their fig tree and none shall be afraid.

Bibi on Gaza

http://www.JerusalemOnline.com/fun15.asp

Gotta tell ya, we supply Isreal with their bombs. I cant figure out why we side with them, the deliberatley target schools and highly populated areas. When are we going to get the clue to stop supporting them?

Who do you want to support Suzy, Hamas?

Israel is fighting terror, you know the bad guys, and we support Israel, the good guys, what dreamworld do you live in?

Israel never did and never does target civilians.

When Hamas hide their rockets in a mosque and fire rockets from schools, then these are no longer civilian locations.

Israel then made over 250,000 phone calls to warn the civilians, and dropped over 10 million leaflets. Only then did Israel destroy the source of the rocket fire.

So time to wake up from your dreamworld Suzy B.

The world is still condemning Israel for their attack on Hamas. 
Where were all these nations, and all you people, during the past years when Hamas was continually firing rockets into Israel? Did any of these critics condemn Hamas, for not only the rockets, but the constant terrorist attacks that has Israel and her citizens living in a constant “high alert” state?  Why hasn't anyone stepped forward to condemn or stop this anti-Semitic hatred and murder? 

We only got a tiny amount of that kind of fear/life on 911.  Americans are too complacent and spoiled to understand what it is like living under the circumstances of a neighbor hell bent on destroying you and your family. 
If someone kept hitting you over and over and you kept telling them to stop or you were going to retaliate, but they never stopped, who is to blame when you finally get enough and pull out your baseball bat to get them to stop. 
HAMAS HAS REPEATED FOR 60 YEARS THEY WOULD NEVER EVER EXCEPT ISRAEL.  They TEACH their children HATE for the Jews and pay families to have their children attached bombs to themselves to kill Israeli citizens. The Palestinian government and Hamas play a great PR game with their underdog whining.  Unfortunately the poor people of Palestine are the ones who are paying the price for this strategy..  
The Jewish people will never again play the underdog and never again trust that “good” will win out.  Guess what.  I don’t blame them.
Knowing people who have lived there, are living there, and those who have relatives there; Israel DOES want peace.  Israel has the power to wipe out any nation over their if they so chose.  They don’t.  They have now shown their power and they have shown their willingness NOT to use that power IF, that is IF, their neighbors will simply accept them.
What nation on earth would live with terrorist murders and constant bombings?

Alex, Hamas has only been around for 20 years. Before then it enjoyed the support of the Israeli authorities.

And

'what nation in the world would accept being forced out of their homeland, and then not being allowed to return?' 'What nation in the world would accept prolonged military occupation?'

Charles, I recommend you read Alex's resume before attacking and nitpicking (20,60) her post, she is a person of the highest integrity ever to visit this blog.

Secondly their is no Palestine nation,

and thirdly Israel left Gaza, with a complete agricultural infrastructure in place, that Hamas turned over night to rocket launchers, so give us a break Charles, their is no occupation of Gaza.

and fourth, Charles, and you should know, the only reason the IDF has a presence in the WB is terror prevention. Without that, Palestinian terrorists would continue the rampage and killing of innocent women and children, over 1,000 during the last Intifada.

Their is no occupation, what their is, is a defense force legitimately protecting the citizens of Israel.

As far as a homeland, they were given a homeland just like the Jews were by the UN, but they decided on war instead of peace.

Sorry, I misspoke, Hamas has simply picked up, and escalated, the fight to rid the area of the state of Israel.  

But the fact stands that Israel's Arab neighbors have stated from the beginning that they would never rest until Israel no longer existed.  Actually the wording was more like they were going to run the Jews into the sea. 

Israel was given state status by the United Nations and the Palestinians were offered the same.  They refused.

The citizens of Israel did not run the Palestinians out of their land.  

Is it now actually believed that the United Nations allowed Jews to put guns to the heads of the Palestinians and run them off all the land that was ordained Israel?  The Palestinians and any other Arab who remained within the boarders of Israel then had rights and freedoms that they would never be allowed to have in Palestine.  One of those freedoms is the freedom to practice whatever religion they wish.  

Today those Arabs who live in Israel not only have equal rights as Israeli citizens, but they are also allowed to hold positions of authority.   The only “right” they are unable to “enjoy” is serving in the military. 

Facts and time-line?
On May 14, 1948, the Zionists announced the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel. Palestine's five Arab neighbor states then attacked Israel.


The 1949 Armistice Agreements that Israel signed with its neighbors left 78% of Palestine (17.5% of the 1921-1946 territory of the Mandate which included Transjordan) in its hands. The remaining territories, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were occupied by Egypt and annexed by Transjordan, respectively.


Additionally, the war created about 750,000 Palestinian refugees who had lived inside Israel's borders. It also brought about the arrival of hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab lands to Israel.


The PLO was established by Arab states in the early 1960s as a client body with its own army - the Palestine Liberation Army. The aim was the 'liberation' of all the territory of Mandate Palestine - in spite of the existing de facto borders the Arab states remained unreconciled with Israel's creation and the proposed partition of Palestine in 1948. At the time there were no significant organizations claiming to represent the whole Palestinian people and the official ideology of the PLO was 'Arab nationalism' - the belief that the Arabs as a whole consisted of one nation and should be in one state.


However, the catastrophic defeat of the Arab states in the Six Day War of 1967 destroyed the credibility of the states that sought to be patrons of the Palestinian people and the way was opened for the radicals, led by Yasser Arafat, who advocated gorilla warfare and who successfully sought to make the PLO a fully independent organization under the control of the fedayeen organizations.  
 
Now, what does having a Jewish State in the region do?  It opens the door for freedom for the individual Arab and thus weakens the hold that the corrupt fascist dictators have over their people.


Former Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas wrote in his 1982 doctoral dissertation that Zionists collaborated with the Nazis to annihilate the Jewish people in order to drive the survivors to Palestine.


The continuation of supporting Hamas' as well as the other militant groups and their hatred and their lies will never allow for forward progress.  The belief in the “new history” only allows these leaders to become even more dangerously powerful, while keeping the Palestinian people in poverty and being used as pawns in their egotistical and deadly quest.

Wow - Michael where do you get your information?   Act like an American citizen and decide what is best for your country.  Spreading lies does not help with peace.   The European jews started the war with the Palestinians - smuggling weapons and ammuntion into the country before the UK left.   Killing thousands of innocent Palestinians.  The UN gave the best part of the fertile land to the Jews and left the Palestinians with the Gaza and West Bank.  The Jewish had no right to make settlements on that land and try to take from the Palestinians.  What year were your 1,000 women and children killed?   When do you show compassion for the poor Palestinians kept like prisoners in the Gaza?  Israel should be providing them with all the food, fuel, and medical aid they need. 

When Israel finally left Gaza 3 years ago (it was never their land) they bulldozed their homes and left the rubble.   Israel is still building settlements in West Bank.   They use high tech weapons against the Palestinians.   Peace does not come from killing.  

The IDF has a presence in the West Bank because of all the illegal Israel settlements there. 

Wow - Michael where do you get your information?   Act like an American citizen and decide what is best for your country.  Spreading lies does not help with peace.   The European jews started the war with the Palestinians - smuggling weapons and ammuntion into the country before the UK left.   Killing thousands of innocent Palestinians.  The UN gave the best part of the fertile land to the Jews and left the Palestinians with the Gaza and West Bank.  The Jewish had no right to make settlements on that land and try to take from the Palestinians.  What year were your 1,000 women and children killed?   When do you show compassion for the poor Palestinians kept like prisoners in the Gaza?  Israel should be providing them with all the food, fuel, and medical aid they need. 

When Israel finally left Gaza 3 years ago (it was never their land) they bulldozed their homes and left the rubble.   Israel is still building settlements in West Bank.   They use high tech weapons against the Palestinians.   Peace does not come from killing.  

The IDF has a presence in the West Bank because of all the illegal Israel settlements there. 

"When Israel finally left Gaza 3 years ago . . .  they bulldozed their homes and left the rubble."

Oh so sad.  No they did not.  Sigh, so so very sad these lies.  Some actually cleaned their homes. 

How sad that there are so many lies out there being spread through ignorance and prejudice.
   
All it takes is a few hate filled people to use misinformation to further their agenda.  This is one prime example.   

But when the Israelis finally were out, the streets of Gaza was overrun with gun shots fired in the air in celebration (like they did when our towers feel fell on 9/11), leaving the Arab merchants who stayed behind in despair.


Then Gaza became exactly what Israel had feared it would. Easy access  of weapons from Egypt and the base for constructing missiles which have been fired daily at Israel ever since.


Please, everyone.  Read the history first.  Then please stop this demonizing of Israel.

Put your energy toward spreading the truth to those who are unable to receive the truth.  We can receive the truth, so we should seek it out, rather than emotionally believe the cries from those that use their religion as a tool to control their people.


The best way to keep control of your citizens is to have an outside enemy to blame all their problem on.

I have no need to continue this debate.  The facts should speak for themselves.

One last time:

All this could have been avoided if the Arab nations had just accepted Israel when it was formed by the UNITED NATIONS.  

Jordan was created as a state at the same time.  Palestine was also given the chance to become a state at the same time.  They refused and allowed themselves to be used as a pawn by the United Arab nations to attack Israel over and over.  When attacks failed they went to terrorism.


I will repeat this fact again.  All the Arab Nations had to do, and STILL could do, is accept the state of Israel with all their advancements - medical, educational, and ecological - that then would gladly be shared by the Israelis with their neighbors.


Israel did not want to fight.  They wanted to live in peace.  However, they will never allow anyone or any country to do what Hitler did.  They will never meekly allow themselves to be exterminated by prejudice and hate born from lies.

Warning to those who post material on this site:

I posted excerpts from the Hamas Charter here.  These excerpts were not doctored in any way.  However, due to the fact that the contents of this Charter was in opposition to the false beliefs of this site, the posting was deleted.

So much for free speech.

Guess it is OK to argue if you keep it within the bounds of not relating facts.  After all, facts might just make people think.

Scary isn't it.  Read fast.  This will surely be deleted too.

to Charles and Mary:

As one of the greatest Jews of all times, Joshua of Nazareth (also known as Jesus Christ) said:  "Why do you look for a speck in your brother' eye and do not see a log in your own"?  Why do you see every imperfection of Israel and do not look at the blatant horrors committed by the leaders of many Arab nations against their own citizens and their blatant, openly proclaimed anti-Semitism? 

The Hamas and Hizbollah (and previously PLO) all had as one of the major goals the ANNIHILATION of Jewish presence in Middle East rather than creating Palestinian state.  Both of those organizations, and Iran which is financing their weaponry, have as their stated goal ANNIHILATION of Israel and claim that Judaism is a "gutter religion" (just read what those guys publish in their newspapers and say on Arab TV).  If you surf the Web, long before Israel went to Lebanon in 2006 or went to Gaza in December 2008, most videos are virulently antisemitic statements and pictures of masked men with guns, extolling death and destruction!   Even kindergarten children in Gaza and West Bank are dancing with guns and dynamite belts around their waste.  The children claim that their desire is to DIE as martyrs, I.E. suicide bombers on a mission to kill the Jews.  The mother of the recently killed Hamas leaders said that she is glad that her son is in paradise marrying 72 virgins (you can see it on U-tube).  Bin Ladin and others like him said that they will destroy the West because "the West loves life and we love DEATH".  

Unlike USA, which is large and separated from the Arab countries, where people openly chant "Death to the Jews" and "death to America", by large oceans, Israel is smaller than New Jersey and at one point only 13 miles wide (at Latrun).  If any country loses the war, the country still exists (historical examples are Germany, Turkey, France).  If Israel were to lose the war against Arabs, it would cease to exist and, if it is to believe Hamas, Hitzballah and Iranian leaders, it would be "wiped of the the face of the Earth".  Those guys are scary to any person who wants to live in peace!

In 1948 and in subsequent years, most of the Arab territory was made Juden-frei! The number of Jews who fled Arab countries, in which they lived for centuries, leaving all their possessions, was approximately same as the number of Arabs who fled Israel (Jewish part of partitioned Palestine).  The Jewish refugees from Arab countries were absorbed into the life of Israel or other Jewish communities around the world, while Arab refugees from Israel were made into permanent refugees, never allowed to be full citizens of ANY Arab country, which could have given them the houses and land that Jews abandoned fleeing for their life.  Instead, those poor refugees were kept deliberately in the refugee camps.   The largest product of those camps are babies who are added to the refugee lists of UN...look at the population rate increases at Wikkipedia.  

UN had contributed to keeping those people dependent and not productive, instead of insisting that neighboring Arab countries absorb them, as it was done with the Jews who fled from Arab countries.  The situation with young people in Gaza and West bank is similar to situation with poor young people in ghettose of America.  Without jobs and education, the prospect of integration into good life is bleak.   Poor American youth end on crack and/or jail (2 millions of Americans and in prisons and jails), while poor Arab youth end up as "martyrs", glorifying death instead of life.  What a pitty!  Such population exchanges are regularly result of wars: When British India was partitioned to India and Pakistan in 1948, 2 millions of Muslims left India for Pakistan and similar number of Hindus left Pakistan for India;  after WWII large chunk of Poland was taken to be a part of USSR and a large chunk of East Germany was given to Poland instead,  With the territory also went refugees...the unfortunate aftermath of MOST wars.  C'ete la vie. All of those refugees are regular citizens of the countries which accepted them, except the Arab refugees resulted from partition of Palestine into Israel and Jordan.  WHY?

Arabs who stayed in Israel during 1948 war are living normal lives and 75% of them do not want to live anywhere else, because their lives are much better than lives of regular people in any other Arab country.  They now form 20% of the total population of Israel and have been protesting against Israel, something they would not be able to do in other Arab countries (nobody protests against governments there without risking their lives). Some of them have unfortunately became a fifth column, under the influence of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic propaganda machinery, as they did during the war of partition of Palestine.

I suggest to Mary and Charles to go and live in Israel and learn about history of the region, rather then trying to revise it.  Read Mark Twain and other travellers, who described Palestine (which was one of the Turkish (Ottoman) ruled provinces until they lost it to Great Britten after WWI) in mid-19th century,  before Jews started immigrating into it and made it livable, followed by the immigration of many Arabs from neighboring countries to have better lives made possible by the Jews and Christians who revived agriculture and commerce in Palestine. 

While Israel has many faults, in comparison with countries that surround this little enclave of democracy those faults are a speck in the eye, and taken out of context of the life in the Middle East! Mary and Charles are only encouraging anti-semitism and distortions of history, while not helping peace, or even people in Gaza and West Bank.  The territories of Muslim countries surrounding Israel is 604 times larger than the territory of Israel.   Everything should be put into perspective.  

My main fear is that because such anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic statements by the European and American peacenicks, the fanatics in Israeli society will become predominant and thus became just like their Arab neighbors, filled with hate of the OTHER.   That would be a pity, because the foundation of Israel is based on an idea of a place where Jews could live in peace with their neighbors: that is the essence of Zionism, and NOT domination of Israeli neighbors, as some of you erroneously claim.  Zionism was a noble idea FOR creation of something good and beautiful and not against ANYBODY, as some here claim, distorting history and present efforts.  Blatant distortion of history of Zionism, as you have done on this forum is anti-productive and further delays possible peace in the Middle East.

Charles and Mary:  you still did not answer what YOU would personally do if your neighborhoods in Brooklyn or Boston and Michigan were rocketed EVERY day (about 10 rockets/day) from some destructive groups of Canada or Mexico. How come that you were not protesting on the streets in the last 8 years against the terrorist organizations that were perpetrating those crimes against Israeli citizens, and were also killing many Palestinians who wanted to live in Peace with Israel?  Why didn't you organize protests, when Hammas was killing Fatah supporters (about 350 Fatah people were killed by Hamas in 2006, when Hamas presumably was elected in Gaza)?   While you may be able to move in a large country like USA, mothers in Sderot, Ashkelon and other Israeli communities within the reach of rockets do not have this luxury.  Why do you have such a double standard against the Jews, when it comes to peace? 

Even Egyptian and Jordanian leaders begged Hamas to stop those rockets, recognizing their damaging effect of peace efforts.   When Arabs in USA in San Francisco can chant antisemitic slogans (claiming that Jews are their dogs...dog is considered a very dirty animal in Muslim world), there is something seriously wrong with American democracy.  If a Jewish person was shouting similar slogans against Arabs or Muslims, the whole hell would break lose.   When Arabs who had been given a privilege to live in European countries are plotting against their new home countries and are bombing subways and synagogues, there is something wrong.  When Arabs who want to have peace with Israel are killed and threatened by their neighbors, how can one have peace?  Where are your protests in those cases?   Are you bent on self-destruction?  While I sympathize with the plight of residents of Gaza (those who did not vote for Hamas and Hitzballah), the solution is not to blame Israel or USA for all the troubles of failed states.   It is also en ecological problem due to the high birth rate in the areas of Gaza and West Bank where they live, and lack of effort to invest into agriculture to feed people, rather then relying on UN food aid.  Iran would rather send them weapons and teach them to kill then teach them to grow food and develop something that benefits people.  

The real solutions to achieve peace may be hidden in creative efforts of Arava Institute in kibbutz Ketera (see www.arava.org), where both Arab and Israeli youth are taught how to live sustainable and turn desert into fertile fields.  

Vlasta . . . . . .

Intelligent.  Now we can only hope that those reading this will ACTUALLY READ what you have written.  Then we can hope that they will go back to the sources that fed them the lies and question their validity.

Fat chance (that they would read what we have posted)  ;-)!  I give up on trying to disperse what the antisemitic propaganda machinery has created in the blogosphere...I wish they would spend more time on learning history and geography, rather then shedding crocodile tears for terrorists, under the guise of helping residents of Gaza and West Bank.  

The poor kids in Gaza are taught to hate Jews and life, instead being educated to take care of the land that they are free to use as they please in Gaza.  Instead growing strawberries (which President Peres talked about in his speech in Davos), they are growing young terrorists who dance and chant "death to the Jews" and "we want to be martyrs" (just check the U-tube to see videos of those masked guys and even kids, with automatic weapons),  They were dancing on the roof tops in Gaza, when Israel was exposed to scud missiles with chemical war heads from Iraq  in 1991.  How can they expect anything from Israel when they shoot Kassam rockets every day (about 10/day in the last 8 years) and want to wipe Israel from the map of the world?

It has been said that the history
of almost all of the Jewish holidays can be summed up succinctly: "They
wanted to kill us; we won. Let's eat." Why has anti-Semitism been so
pervasive in so many countries, in so many time periods and for so many
reasons? (One begins to wonder. Perhaps there is something wrong with the
Jews and Judaism? After all, there is an old Yiddish saying -- "If one
person calls you a donkey, ignore him; if two people call you a donkey, buy
a saddle.")
Between the years 250
CE and 1948 CE - a period of 1,700 years - Jews have experienced more
than eighty expulsions from various countries in Europe - an average of
nearly one expulsion every twenty-one years. Jews were expelled from
England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia,
Moravia and seventy-one other countries.


Historians have
classified six explanations as to why people hate the Jews:


Economic -- "We hate Jews because
they possess too much wealth and power." Chosen People -- "We hate Jews
because they arrogantly claim that they are the chosen people."
Scapegoat -- "Jews are a convenient
group to single out and blame for our troubles." Deicide -- "We hate Jews because
they killed Jesus." Outsiders, -- "We hate Jews because
they are different than us." (The dislike of the unlike.) Racial Theory -- "We hate Jews
because they are an inferior race."


As we examine the explanations, we must ask -- Are they the causes for
anti-Semitism or excuses for Anti-Semitism? The difference? If one takes
away the cause, then anti-Semitism should no longer exist. If one can show a
contradiction to the explanation, it demonstrates that the "cause" is not a
reason, it is just an excuse. Let's look at some contradictions:


Economic -- The Jews of 17th- 20th
century Poland and Russia were dirt poor, had no influence and yet they
were hated.

 Chosen People -- a) In the late
19th century, the Jews of Germany denied "Choseness." And then they worked
on assimilation. Yet, the holocaust started there. b) Christians and
Moslems profess to being the "Chosen people," yet, the world and the
anti-Semites tolerate them.

 Scapegoat -- Any group must already
be hated to be an effective scapegoat. The Scapegoat Theory does not then
cause anti-Semitism. Rather, anti-Semitism is what makes the Jews a
convenient scapegoat target. Hitler's ranting and ravings would not be
taken seriously if he said, "It's the bicycle riders and the midgets who
are destroying our society."

 Deicide -- a) the Christian Bible
says the Romans killed Jesus, though Jews are mentioned as accomplices
(claims that Jews killed Jesus came several hundred years later). How come
the accomplices are persecuted and there isn't an anti-Roman movement
through history? b) Jesus himself said, "Forgive them [i.e., the Jews],
for they know not what they do." The Second Vatican Council in 1963
officially exonerated the Jews as the killers of Jesus. Neither statement
of Christian belief lessened anti-Semitism.

 Outsiders -- With the Enlightenment
in the late 18th century, many Jews rushed to assimilate. Anti-Semitism
should have stopped. Instead, for example, with the Nazis came the cry, in
essence: "We hate you, not because you're different, but because you're
trying to become like us! We cannot allow you to infect the Aryan race
with your inferior genes."

 Racial Theory -- The overriding
problem with this theory is that it is self-contradictory: Jews are not a
race. Anyone can become a Jew - and members of every race, creed and color
in the world have done so at one time or another.


Every other hated group is hated for a relatively defined reason. We
Jews, however, are hated in paradoxes: Jews are hated for being a lazy and
inferior race - but also for dominating the economy and taking over the
world. We are hated for stubbornly maintaining our separateness - and, when
we do assimilate - for posing a threat to racial purity through
intermarriages. We are seen as pacifists and as warmongers; as capitalist
exploiters and as revolutionary communists; possessed of a Chosen-People
mentality, as well as of an inferiority complex. It seems that we just can't
win.


Now we know what are NOT the
reasons for anti-Semitism.


http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Why_Do_People_Hate_The_Jews.htm

The excellent review of why "they" hate "us" (Jews) reminds me of a song by Tom Lehrer who was a mathematician at Harvard some 35 years ago.  He noted in his song that in every country there is some group that is hated:  Take example of Flemish and Valones in Belgium, French and Germans, different Balkan groups etc.   His last observation was that EVERYBODY HATES THE JEWS  ;-)!

This may be due to geography.  While other groups are limited to a certain geographical area, the Jews are a minority EVERYWHERE in the World, except in Israel.  Thus, when things in any country go wrong, Jews are a convenient scape goat for all the ills.

Just accept it and let's eat...after all, Gandi said that Hatred affects the Hater more than  a Hated one (except if the Hater wants to kill the subject of his hate, as Hamas and many other Arabs want to do to the Jews).

francisco Martin With Lebanon having the same information that you just posted,why would they attack Israel?

You guys are amazing, great postings. I have nothing to add. :0)

Jeremy Keith Hammond what would you suggest that Israel do when they  receive another unprovoked attack from an Arab nation or terrorist group?

Better question = what should Gazans or West Bank people do about Israel's oppression and continuation of harsh sanctions?   Why are they building settlements in the West Bank still? 

In the US we have Mexicans pick our strawberries - do you really think that 1.5 million Gazans could thrive on strawberry fields?   Why after leaving Gaza, did Israel restrict their ability to trade or travel? 

Do you really think that people would use home made rockets on a country with nuclear weapons if they were not desparate to do something to achieve their rights?

It is ridiculous that people here offer a solution of 3.5 million people moving to another Arab country.  One of the reasons that the US backed creation of Israel is because 100,000 Jews had entered this country and we couldn't absorb more.  Palestinians are 3.5 million people that deserve their own country and rights.   Why can't Israeli Jews live peacefully with others?  Italy does not require that you be a Catholic to live there.  How can a country call itself democratic and yet be based on a religion?  Michael Ross left Israel for a reason.  If people can't discuss some things wrong with their country, the country can't be much of a democracy.   In the US we are not afraid to tell what is wrong with this country - and thanks to Bush, it is a long list. 

The Jewish/Israeli supporters here have no solutions that discuss what Israel needs to do differently.  Palestinians are the obvious victim to anyone that can step back and see what is happening over there.   This is a site about change - not a rally for Israel with Israelis signing on with their biased opinions.  Isn't it odd that Palestinians don't have Internet access to add their stories to this blog?  

Jeremy - the acts are provoked by the severe sanctions - you be deprived food, aid, means to improve your situation and tell me that would not provoke you to do whatever you could.  It is a joke to say they are unprovoked actions by the Palestinians on innocent Israelis.  Give Palestinians equal rights to schools, jobs, travel, and then call it unprovoked.

Mike - no one would leave a perfect country for a job.  I keep asking you for solutions and all you can do is tell how wonderful Israel is and how horrible the Palestinians are - ungrateful for strawberry patches!  Why don't I get you a job at McDonald's? 

Israel is not a Jewish state?  Then what is the problem?  Why can't the Palestinians be given equal rights then?  

Tell me something horrible about Israel or a way Israel can be better?   If it is the way you say, you must have a lot of answers to that question.  I  sure can tell you many things the US can do to improve or that they did wrong. Explain the settlements in the West Bank.

Those of us that criticize Israel expect more of you.  After the Holocaust, we expected that you would empathize with the Palestinians and their plight and give them their rights.  How can you allow them to be refugees in their own country?  It is like they are being punished for the Holocaust. 

I feeel sorry for Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank, who have been robed of their state in 2000, when the state was offered to them, perhaps not perfect, but never the less a viable state.  Instead, Arafat rejected.   During the entire reign of the Palestinian Authority, lots of money that international community donated to develop institutions and jobs in West Bank and Gaza Strip went to European Banks into the accounts of the top officials of PLO.   That is suposedly the reason Hammas won in elections in 2005 (although it may have been forced "election", since those Hamas guys are ragher intimidating to everybody who is not supporting them).   By "intimidating" I mean death to any Palestinian who wants peace with Israel and wants to recognize the right of Israel to exist.

Yesterday the Amensty International has published a report demonstrating the kind of "democracy" pusued by Hamas in Gaza.

10 February 2009
Palestinian Authority: Hamas’ deadly campaign in the shadow of the war in Gaza.  Since the end of December 2008, during and after the Israeli military offensive which killed some 1,300 Palestinians, most of them civilians, Hamas forces and militias in the Gaza Strip have engaged in a campaign of abductions, deliberate and unlawful killings, torture and death threats against those they accuse of “collaborating” with Israel, as well as opponents and critics.

for entire report check: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE21/001/2009/en/9f210586-f762-11dd-8fd7-f57af21896e1/mde210012009en.html

BTW, when peace agreement was signed with Egypt and Sinai was returned to Egypt, Egyptians did NOT WANT Gaza strip, since some of the Gaza inhabitants were nothing but trouble to Egyptians.   So now it is Israel's headache.  Same with West Bank.  The only reason it was not returned to Jordan after it was occupied in 1967 was to have a buffer between Israel and its enemies (that was before Jordan signed a peace agreement).  As those who know geography realize, at one point the width of Israel is only 13 miles (at Latrun).  One can almost spit from West Bank over Israel into Mediterranean sea  ;-)!   Unfortunately, in the meantime the settlers moved in and Intifada started, so the checkpoints and the Wall along Israeli/West bank border were built to stop young men (and women) from the West Bank coming to Israel and blow themseves up.   It is a pity, since all those checkpoints are a hardship for people in the West Bank.  The problem expanded and now only a miracle can solve this...

Vlasta - Gaza and West Bank were not Israel's to worry about - it was land that Israel took that were not part of land the UN "gave" to Jews!   Israelis never had the right to build their settlements there - then and now.  The Palestinians have the right to decide how to use their land.   It is irrelevant whether or not Jordan or Egypt wanted the areas.   Israel is the cause of the Palestinians situation TODAY - therefore, Israel should rebuild and are responsible for the horrific circumstances under which Palestinians live TODAY.

The bottom line is that Israel did not have the right to occupy the lands.   Israelis are the occupiers.  Peace requires Israel lift all sanctions and get out of the West Bank.  A perfect solution obviously would be that all the land be for both the Israelis and the Palestinians but would Israel allow that to happen?  Israel wants control and would not allow an Arab to be in charge (what a democracy they are!).  Why does Israel accept US money? - they are not an independent country.

My Jewish US friends do not support what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians - the supporters of Israel in the US are Christinians primarily that really have no idea what is going on in that part of the world.   Example - even Sarah Palin needed to be shown on a map where Israel was  - which would be very typical of Americans her age.  Americans I know that support Israel think the Palestinians were responsible for 9/11.   Once people are educated, they feel differently about what is being done to Palestinians and dislike that Israel gets so much of our US money.  Israel's cries have been listened to long enough - time to listen to the Palestinians cries.  Thank God for the Jimmy Carter's and Colin Powells of the world for letting us all know what is happening to the Palestinians. 

Mary, I agree with you regarding Gaza and West bank.  However, their current status is a result of the war in which all neighboring countries attacked Israel (actually they were amassing troops on Israeli borders and Nasser and Assad were ranting and raving how Israel will be destroyed by their brave armies).   The world was expecting that there was going to be a massacre of Jews again, just like a Holocaust, since the combined Arab countries had superior weapons and the numbers of soldiers were much greater than what Israel had in 1967.  Golda Meir (the best "man" among the Israeli politicians) in consultation  with her generals decided that if Israel wanted to survive it needed to destroy the airplanes of Egyptians and Syrians, which they did brilliantly, while the Egyptian pilots were eating breakfast in their canteens.   6-day war ensued with thousands of Egyptians taken in as war prisoners on Sinai and Syrians in Golan Heights.  The Israeli army was so successful that they were near Cairo and Damascus, when the international community asked them to stop...their intention was not to occupy Egypt, Damascus and Jordan, but to prevent future wars.  The Gaza was a part of Sinai and West Bank was occupied because it was believed at the time that having Israeli soldiers at Jordan river would prevent stealth attacks from Syria and Jordan.  It did prevent Jordan from attacking in Yom Kippur War in 1973 but not Egypt and Syria.   They were defeated then, but Sadat had courage to come and work on peace.  Jordan has also been cooperative and Syrians are showing some signs of desire for peace.

If Israel was not attacked by Egypt, Jordan and Syria in in 1967 and those countries wanted peace with Israel earlier than 1967, there would be no problem of Gaza and no problem with West Bank, since they would still be a part of Egypt and a part of Jordan.  Also, name Palestinian was usually reserved for Jewish Palestinians until 1960ies when Arafat formed PLO.

I lived in Israel from 1971-1976 and was hitchhiking all over Israel including West Bank...that was before there were many settlements and before intifada, incited mostly by PLO.  As you may remember, PLO caused trouble everywhere they went.  They were first in Jordan until the king kicked them out...same with Lebanon and then they ended up with Kadafi in  before renouncing terrorism as its method and recognizing Israel right to ecxist.  It is to be expected that when you have a buch of armed men they destabilize the country just and Hamas and Hetbollah did with Gaza and Lebanon respectively.

I argued with my friends that Israel should return Gaza and West Bank as soon as possible, since the population growth is such that the population doubles every 20 years, and thus the problem gets bigger and bigger...

IF Hamas gets to be the governing force in the West Bank as they are in Gaza, than we have to look forward to a peculiar kind of "democracy", as it is practiced in Gaza. 

10 February 2009

Palestinian Authority: Hamas’ deadly campaign in the shadow of the war in Gaza.  Since the end of December 2008, during and after the Israeli military offensive which killed some 1,300 Palestinians, most of them civilians, Hamas forces and militias in the Gaza Strip have engaged in a campaign of abductions, deliberate and unlawful killings, torture and death threats against those they accuse of “collaborating” with Israel, as well as opponents and critics.

for entire report check: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE21/001/2009/en/9f210586-f762-11dd-8fd7-f57af21896e1/mde210012009en.html

Sami, if Arab Muslims are subjected to this kind of harassment by Hamas, I shudder to think what Hamas would do with the Jews, if they found themselves in control of any place in the Middle East. Look at videos on U-tube, where kindergartners in Gaza are dressed as suicide bombers dancing with weapons, or masked adults shouting slogans "death to the Jews" . Your one state solution is an illusion, since the trust has been broken between the two people and it will take years to repair it. 

As we know, it takes YEARS to build TRUST and only one stupid misstep to destroy the trust.  While individually, we (Jews and Muslim Arabs) can be friends (especially if we live in America), under current conditions of great animosity from both sides, it will take years for the Israeli Jews to feel secure with Arabs.   Same for Palestinians (who until 1967 were either Jordanians or Egyptians) it will take years and changes to feel comfortable with the Israeli Jews.  Those nasty chants by large numbers of Arabs and other Muslims around the world "Death to the Jews" and "Jews are dogs" are very troubling and do not encourage confidence in many Jews.  You do NOT see many Jews around the world chanting the equivalent nasty slogans against Arabs or Muslims, do you?

francisco Martin The IDF was in charge of the camps but who did the killing?

The Sabra and Shatila massacre (or Sabra and Chatila massacre; Arabic: مذبحة صبرا وشاتيلا‎ Maḏbaḥat Ṣabrā wa Shātīlā) (33°51′40.47″N 35°30′01.50″E / 33.8612417°N 35.500417°E / 33.8612417; 35.500417) was carried out between September 16 and 18, 1982 by the Lebanese Forces militia group after the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) allowed Lebanese Phalangist militiamen to enter two Palestinian refugee camps, and the militia massacred civilians inside. It was argued that the Israelis should have known that a massacre could occur, considering the assassination of Phalangist leader and prospective president Bachir Gemayel two days before, and given the long history of animosity between the Palestinians and the Phalangists.

The exact number killed is disputed, with estimates ranging from 328 to 3,500 (see below).

francisco Martin

"Dave, I thank you for these interesting Opinion editorials. While you may or may not agree with all the opinions expressed by the writers, I still consider them informed opinions."

Francisco,those were bias opinions!

Blame the Jews for everything!

Christian Phalanges in Southern Lebanon kill Arab refugees in camps and it is the fault of the Jews!???  They told Sharon that some of the terrorists were hiding in those camps.  Was Sharon supposed to know that they would kill civilians?  Arab kills another Arab and the Jew is to blame!???

Hamas and Hetzbollah kept launching rockets and hurt Israeli civilians for years (the number of casualties is low because Israel had built shelters EVERYWHERE to protect the civilian population as much as possible), provoking Israeli army to go into Lebanon and Gaza.   What other country would wait for years to take an action to protect its civilians.  Try doing something like this (launching rockets and other terrorist activities) in USA, China, Russia or any European country and see how long it would take for those country's armies to invade the offending country to get rid of the rocket launchers!

Then during Israel offensive in Gaza, Hamas performs their own "ethnic cleansing" of ANYBODY who is not supporting their terrorist activities (see Amnesty International report of February 10, 2009 http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE21/001/2009/en/9f210586-f762-11dd-8fd7-f57af21896e1/mde210012009en.html   I would like to know, how many of those purported ~1300 who were killed during Israeli invasion in Gaza are the victims of Hamas purging the population in Gaza, as Hetzbollah did in Lebanon during Israeli invasion and even more during de facto civil war in Southern Lebanon where they (the terrorists, supported by Iran, just as Hamas is supported both with weapons and killing know-how training) are now in control of the large territory and the Lebanese army has given up foinf there.  Hetzbollah has again starting to prepare launching rockets on Northern part of Israel, which worries me.

It is convenient to blame the Jews and America for everything that has been wrong in the World, and especially in the Middle East.  However, many of those are dysfunctional societies even without the help from the West...naturally stupid Israeli and USA government policies and activities do not help, but they are not always the guilty ones, as some of you claim  ;-)!

Undoubtedly, Palestinians are the result of the 1967 war and unsolved refugee problem created in 1948 when Jewish refugees who fled Arab countries were settled in Israel and the West, while the Arabs who fled as a consequence of Arab armies attacking the newly created Israel, rather than accepting the partition of Palestine (Jordan was the Arab part of that division), were deliberately prevented from settling down in other Arab countries.  

They were the ONLY refugees in the World that were not helped to settle and live productive lives for 60 years after the Partition of Palestine.  Their numbers were often inflated (if the child or adult died, it was not reported), so that they would get more UN handouts, but their birthrate is one of the highest in the world.  What was in 1948  about 600,000 Arab refugees (and about 750,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries at the same time), there are now about 6,000,000 of people who called themselves Palestinians, more than 50% are children under 14 years of age.  Those children are actively taught to hate Israel and Jews, and are preparing for the life of martyrdom, in which death by suicide/homocide is lauded, as long as many Jews are killed in the process.  The promise of 72 virgins in Paradise apparently is rather enticing to 16 y old boys, who are not taught skills necessary to produce things for life (like food, engineering and other activities for life maintenance), but things for death.   As Bin Ladin and other terrorist leader said: they (Alkaida, Hetzbollah, Hamas and others) will win because they LOVE death as much as the West lives LIFE!

It is detrimental to any person' self-esteem to keep them dependent on aid, rather than enabling them to EARN their living.  Before Intifada, Israel had open borders for both Gaza and West Bank inhabitants (there were not checkpoints and very few settlements), and people were able to work in Israel...many in construction industry.  That all stoped once the young suicide bombers and other terrorists started coming to Israel and causeing troubles.  Israel was forced to close the borders and put the checkpoints. 

As reported earlier, Palestinians could have had a state in 2000 if they were willing to take Ehud Barak' offer of a statehood, but they wanted EVERYTHING at once, without being able to insure safety of Israeli civilians (if they are helped to organize their own state of Palestine).  Also they seam to always side with the wrong people, like rejoicing in 1991 when scud missiles were falling in Israel from Iraq (Saddam Hussein).  The American government had urged Israel not to respond then, in order to keep the Arab coalition going against Iraq, and although Israel was attacked even with chemical weapons by Hussein, they did nothing except given people gas masks and air proofed the bomb shelters... many houses were destroyed.  Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank were dancing on the roof tops as the scuds were falling on Israeli cities...

How can Israel trust that having a Palestinian state will not encourage more rocket launching and more wars?  It is hopeful that Egypt and Jordan and even Syria are finally acknowledging the right of Israel to exist, and hopefully their leaders will not be killed for wanting peace as Sadat (and Rabin) were killed by the extremists.  It is about time that Jews and Arabs unite in their effort to transform the desert into a garden and live happily ever after...see  www.arava.org