Photos, Video and Analysis from Gaza Protest March in NYC
Published January 03, 2009 @ 06:59PM PT
I attended the protest march in New York City today against the assault on Gaza. This protest, like many others in the past week, was called by a coalition of groups with International ANSWER at the center. On the one hand, I'm not a supporter of the politics of these groups. On the other, NO ONE ELSE is out there. As a compromise, I attended but partly as a citizen-journalist. With luck, I'll leave supporters of both Israeli and Palestine feeling awkward to have me attending their rallies....
Obsession with the Holocaust
Once upon a time, the Jewish right wing obsessed in public about the Holocaust and how it shouldn't happen again. Menahem Begin had "never again" as part of his foreign policy soundbite routine. Based on what I saw today, the tables have turned; supporters of Palestinian rights are eager to connect the Holocaust to current events, even more than the pro-Israel counter protesters across the street.


First, some notes about the photos above. Most of the signs at the rally were printed and handed out by the organizers. While I made an effort to photograph hand made signs, most the signs at the march were prepared by the organizers. The yellow sign above that reads "Genocide in Gaza - Made in USA" was an official slogan of the rally.
Second, I observed a number of interactions between the organizers, who wore yellow arm-bands and the folks with the worst signs, such as the swastika and the start of david. None of the signs were deemed offensive, or even bad PR.
It's crazy to have to explain why these signs are problematic. But since many of the visitors to this site might be genuinely interested in a sincere answer, let's do it.
Why Using Nazism and the Holocaust to Support Palestine is a Grave Error
1. Because if the killing of some hundreds, or even thousands of people is "genocide" on a par with the Holocaust, then where do you go when the death toll hits five or six figures? Just as the Israeli response in Gaza is deemed "disproportionate" by the international community, we need to recognize that some verbal responses are "disproportionate" as well.
2. Part of the desire to use the Holocaust against the Jews/Zionists/Israelis is a natural and understandable desire to 'tweak the noses' of one's opposition. This kind of dark sarcastic or spiteful language isn't unique to this issue, but it's rarely as harmful. The problem is that political messaging to observers doesn't work when couched in this kind of language. In the same way that email often fails to convey humor, dark and spiteful doesn't convey political messaging well.
3. The Holocaust is an awful tragedy that befell the Jewish people. Taking that experience and turning it around as verbal barbs against the same group is tasteless and offensive. It's like white people using the "N word". Even though Blacks do it, you can't.
4. The conflict between Israelis and Palestinians has spread, and now includes many other groups. The Lebanese, for example, who paid an enormous price as a consequence of the Nakba. Or the Jordanians, whose demographics were drastically altered. By using Holocaust imagery and language, you are conveying that the opposition isn't merely Israel, or the Zionists, but all Jews. This has the effect of portraying your side as anti-Semitic, thus strengthening Israel's case. It also helps unite Jews in active or passive support of the Israeli PR effort.
Notice I'm being careful in my words to convey mostly strategic reasons to avoid this kind of imagery. There is of course, the moral and ethical imperative to treat other groups, and the sacred cows of those other groups, with a certain degree of respect. That doesn't mean supporting Israel just because most Jews do; Israel is a legitimate political issue. Violating Jewish sensibilities to score rhetorical point for Palestinians is cheap, mean-spirited, hateful, dishonest and vicious. These are sentiments that play well (sadly) with some overwhelmingly Arab, Muslim and far-left audiences. Since it comes at the cost of building support for Palestinian rights in the Western world, we can also say that using this language is also, ultimately, a blow against the Palestinian cause.
And a shout out to April Rosenblum's excellent pamphlet "The Past Didn't Go Anywhere" about anti-Semitism on the left. You can see a free version here.
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Comments (34)
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Why are so many Jews so supportive of Israel? It was founded, after all, only by deliberate ethnic cleansing of the native people, with violence, terror and mass executions of helpless people, POWs with their hands bound lined up and shot, and women, children, infants, elderly. I don't understand why Jews in general would want to be associated with that.
Legally, ethnic cleansing is genocide. To be sure, in the common accepted definition genocide is a much greater atrocity. The nazi genocide against the Jews, leftists, Gypsies and other people regarded as impure was far greater than anything Israel has done against the Palestinians.
That being said, almost all Zionist leaders and many if not most of the rest had intent to destroy the Palestinians as a people and take their land. This was Israel's official position until the signing of the Oslo accords. It's not entirely clear that Israel or most of its supporters have ever given up this intent, large numbers still deny the existence of Palestine or its people, and ethnic cleansing continues in all of historic Palestine ruled by Israel except for the few bantustan-like "population centers" that Israel would like the Palestinians to accept as their state.
In other ways the Israeli occupation can be compared to nazi occupations, with whole villages or cities or 1.5 million people being punished for the defiance of a few, and torture, humiliation, imprisonment without trial, imprisonment or killing for political protest. This is exactly how the nazis rule the parts of Europe they overran.
Squeezing food supplies, causing mass malnutrition and hunger, denying drinkable water to 1.5 million people of Gaza, how can these not be indications of genocidal intent?
Yeah, they let some food in. Israeli leadership doesn't want the Isreal "brand" to be ethnic cleansing. Bad publicity.
I'm sorry if the comparison violates your sensibilities.
Then Olmert announces that he harbors no ill will towards the people of Gaza while starving and bombing them! Meanwhile, so many other supporters of Israel have said that all Palestinians deserve what they get for electing Hamas, and the bombing and forcing people into starvation is justified.
Posted by Kay Swen on 01/03/2009 @ 07:44PM PT
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First, Historically, Palestine was a creation of the Roman empire, so every indigenous people living there at the time were Palestinian.. Jew and Muslim.... Oh wait a minute.. there was no such thing as Muslim at that time was there? Hummmm. Maybe you should go check your history before you comment. Required reading: OH JERUSALEM by Larry Collins & Dominique LaPierre If you read this book maybe you will have a better understanding of this situation and not be so blatently emotional! 6,000 Kassam rockets and 6 months later the Israelis have enough and all of a sudden they are the aggressors? Give me a break! Peace Is Conditional!
Posted by Eric Tranum on 01/03/2009 @ 09:06PM PT
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Thank you so much for posting this Charles. It is because of this sort of idiocy that I (and most likely many others) did not attend any protests against the Israeli assault on Gaza.
Posted by Gregory Friedman on 01/03/2009 @ 10:06PM PT
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I'm trying to understand your argument:
'1. Because if the killing of some hundreds, or even thousands of people is "genocide" on a par with the Holocaust, then where do you go when the death toll hits five or six figures? Just as the Israeli response in Gaza is deemed "disproportionate" by the international community, we need to recognize that some verbal responses are "disproportionate" as well.'
Are you saying that because the genocide against the Jews in order to "purify" Germany was in the millions and much greater, it's OK to kill hundreds or thousands or 10s of thousands in order to "purify" Israel? (note: Zionists used various terms meaning cleansing or ritual purification to describe their operations against the Arabs)?
Why complain so much about leftists, who are for the most part have made sincere efforts to avoid conflating Judaism and Zionism, yet you ignore strong Zionist efforts to conflate them? Many, many times Zionists have stated that criticism of Israel is anti-semitism.
Posted by Kay Swen on 01/04/2009 @ 08:04AM PT
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Kay, this blog has many posts in sympathy with the Palestinian struggle. It is rare that we post something with criticism of the pro-Palestinian side. How is that we are complaining "so much"?
Secondly, I cannot answer on behalf of Zionists who conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. I am not one of them. In my experience the far left and the far right seek to conflate both terms. (In addition to the mainstream Zionists, who often portray honest criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism.)
Third, I'm saying quite clearly that being accurate and honest matters. The assault on Gaza is many horrible things, but it is not "genocide". Saying so is wrong on many levels, and it is an example of horrible strategy that actually harms the effort to restrain Israel and build support for Palestinian rights.
Fourth, it might be that many instances of ethnic cleansing have been part of a genocide, but it does not follow that if ethnic cleansing is occuring then genocide is happening as well. These matters are laid out pretty clearly in international law. You will not find any reputable human rights organization accusing Israel of committing genocide. It's a political charge used as a smear tactic, to demonize Israel utterly, and portray that side is pure evil on a par with the Nazis. Since you cannot make peace with pure evil Nazis, it is a kind of excuse to support unending conflict, or to force Israelis to submit. I prefer the alternative: negotiations in which the desires of Israeli Jews are taken account of, along with the desires of Palestinians.
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/04/2009 @ 08:34AM PT
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Point well taken, but you may not consider deeply enough that if it was YOUR family, YOUR home, YOUR people and YOUR life that was having hell fired down upon it ... you'd feel like it was genocide. And ultimately there's at best a fine line (if any at all) between state-sponsored slaughter and terror on this scale ... and genocide. Personally, I wouldn't want to split that gory hair.
That said ... what do you honestly believe are the most effective avenues for protest at this juncture?
Posted by Burton Weisacre on 01/04/2009 @ 08:57AM PT
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In the past, Israelis who were victimized by terrorism equated Arafat with Hitler. That was hyperbole as well, as can be understood as people in pain reaching for whatever langauge they can to express their pain.
And waiting in the wings were political activists, eager to seize the most emotion laden words and ideas floating around, to advance partisan agendas.
Which is to say, it's wrong to criticize a bereaved family for how they express themselves in the moment of pain. But it's essential to criticize political movements for how they exploit reality to craft a narrative that demonizes the enemy, so as to win a temporary political victory.
And - with all due respect - genocide isn't a "feeling." However fine the line may be, it's far away from what is happening in Gaza. The whole conversation about genocide and holocaust is a distraction, which is why it's important to oppose it's use within the peace movement.
The most effective protests have three elements:
Well defined protesting constituency that enjoys legitimacy
Appropriate target that can be pressured effectively
Achievable goals that make sense even after being filtered by the media
My proposal might then be:
- Protest organized by 'US citizens, Arab, Muslim and Jewish, concerned about peace, and the safety and welfare of their relatives and co-relgionists in Israel and Gaza
- Aimed at Congressional targets who might be sensitive or weak right now (Rangel and Weiner come to mind, if you are in the NY area)
- Demand a public statement in favor of a ceasesire that the US supports and helps to pass through in the UN Security Council.
Sadly, the political reality is that the peace movement is so weak and divided, that even this very limited effort is unlikely to happen.
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/04/2009 @ 09:48AM PT
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Burton, I would protest Iran supporting terror in the region by supplying Hamas with guns and money. Without Iran's meddling in Gaza and Lebanon their would be peace now, and we would not be having this conversation.
Posted by Michael Ross on 01/04/2009 @ 09:50AM PT
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Israel did try for years to destroy the Palestinians as a people. Why do you think the they designated it a crime to even display the Palestinian colors, imprisoned, tortured and expelled many for doing so?
The official position of Israel vis-a-vis the existence of Palestinians changed with the signing of the Oslo accords. I'm unconvinced that their real intent has changed, just that they don't think they can fully get away with it.
You are right there is a legal difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide. If I understand it right, the main difference is that ethnic cleansing can be accomplished by non-violent means, such as what Israel is applying in all the areas it controls, denial of permits for Palestinians to live in their own homes for example. This isn't genocide but it is ethnic cleansing. It can also accomplished by violent means such as pogroms. Genocide entails killing members of a group, or "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part." Thus the line between the two is not clear.
Whatever, violent means are exactly how Israel was founded, with clear intent, the Zionists killed members of the Palestinians, mostly non-combatants, in order to purify it, get rid of the non-Jews. The present attacks on Gaza are a continuation of that, the denial of food, clean water, all calculated to bring about an acceptance on the part of the people of their permanent exile.
Posted by Kay Swen on 01/04/2009 @ 11:05AM PT
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Israel is defending themselves after having missiles shot at them first. They are not acting as the Nazi's did. They are not carrying on genocide. These people talking are just suffering from antisemitism. This fighting between Jews and Arabs has been going on since biblical times and these reason for the fighting are deep hatred for each other. Do you all think you have the answer to fix this? Is the answer to fling more hatred at someone? The United State needs so pull out. These 2 countries know how to handle each other.
Posted by Ellaine Janicki on 01/04/2009 @ 11:41AM PT
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I tried to read all the comments hear, but all the emotion and anger on both sides just makes me more sad! BOTH governments and religious leaders in this struggle are fueling the fire, period! Violence ALWAYS produces more violence, and while I understand either side saying that they are "defending their families" both Hamas and the IDF are not "creating conditions for peace" or life for that matter.
In response to your blog, I do agree that comparing the Gaza situation, and the general Palestinian postion, as "like the Holocaust" is counter-productive, but for deeper reasons than just strategic, because any time we link current events to history we are creating false parallels that blur the reality -- even, comparing it to "apartied" like Jimmy Carter did, though closer, is still making an emotional reference without truly looking for solutions.
Peace is not "conditional" as someone said above, it is vital to human survival. If we as a species don't evolve and realize that redemptive violence is a myth used to keep us under the control of nation states, and that nations themselves are an out of date idea, we will eventually wipe ourselves out.
Protestors should be protesting both sides of the violence, and supporting both sides of the innocents, anything short of that is inhumane and hypocritical posturing.
Posted by Mark Fredrick on 01/04/2009 @ 12:56PM PT
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If you want to protest, I would suggest protesting against terror as a means to an end.
If Hamas would cease its attacks on Israel we would not have to protest.
If the Palestinians of Gaza had not voted for a terror organization to represent them, we would not have to protest.
Their is a cause and an effect here, and many tend to mix the two up. The cause for the current strife are the 7,000+ rockets launched on Israel, this act has no justification under any circumstance. The effect of this attack is Israel defending its citizens, as any government would do.
Posted by Michael Ross on 01/04/2009 @ 02:17PM PT
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As an Israeli I want to testify that these types of images make Israelis feel isolated from the international community and the global left particularly. When the world appears to misunderstand that Israel faces tough problems with the Palestinian people, when the story is portrayed in blacks and whites, where the Hammas responsibility for the situation is completely erased, Israeli citizens understand that the Hammas is encouraged to stay course, and without military action, there's no reason for them to enter negotiations.
The Palestinian problem MUST be solved through negotiation, and this type of protests confirm to both sides that negotiation is useless at best, or impossible at worst.
Posted by Roy Klein on 01/05/2009 @ 01:06PM PT
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" The conflict between Israelis and Palestinians has spread, and now includes many other groups. The Lebanese, for example, who paid an enormous price as a consequence of the Nakba. Or the Jordanians, whose demographics were drastically altered. By using Holocaust imagery and language, you are conveying that the opposition isn't merely Israel, or the Zionists, but all Jews. "
Charles can you please explain the logical leap that makes you conclude that the use of the word holocaust implies that the enemy are all Jews? I really cannot see how can you jump to this logical (as in formal logic) implication?
Posted by A N on 01/11/2009 @ 05:16PM PT
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Sure. The history of the Holocaust is shared by all Jews in a particular way. [I'm not denying that other groups have strong connections as well, such as gypsies, communists, etc.) The accusation that Israel is conducting a genocide, and the use of the word holocaust, carries with it the implication that just as the Jews were once victims of a genocide, now they are perpetrators.
In other words, some words bridge the gap between 'Jewish' and 'Israeli' and actually increase the amount of identification between the two catagories. This serves two ideological interests. On the one hand, it serves the strong supporters of Israel who wish to hitch all Jewish wagons to Israeli self interest. On the other, it serves the interests of anti-semites and extremist supporters of the Palestinians, who wish to portray Israel as a pawn of a more international conspiracy, a partnership in which the 'international Jew' is playing a central role. Many of us follow the sad news that some Islamic groups, including Hamas, have accepted things like the 'International Protocols of the Elders of Zion' as useful documents.
My advice to Palestinians and their supporters: don't fall for the trap. There is a certain psychological lift you get by turning the tables on the Israelis and using one of the main reasons to support them (being victims of genocide in the past) as a reason to condemn them (former victims turned into perpetrators of genocide lose moral right to statehood). But the cost is enormous; loss of credibility, uniting your opposition, and creating attention around a side issue of small importance.
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/11/2009 @ 05:39PM PT
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Kay:
"It (israel) was founded, after all, only by deliberate ethnic cleansing of the native people, with violence, terror and mass executions of helpless people, POWs with their hands bound lined up and shot, and women, children, infants, elderly."
"they (israel) designated it a crime to even display the Palestinian colors, imprisoned, tortured and expelled many for doing so"
Where on earth are you getting these facts?
Posted by Evan Russek on 01/11/2009 @ 07:10PM PT
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Funny story. During the first Intifada, I worked at the Riviera Hotel in Tel-Aviv. At the time they were constructing the Opera Towers across the street. In a corner room with a balcony, my friend and I hung up 4 t-shirts to dry, in the colors white, red, green and black.
About 45 minutes later, the police came and ordered us to remove the shirts, as it was clearly an effort to display the colors of the Palestinian flag. I asked the officer, who called the cops? Apparently, it was a crane operator working the Opera Tower.
Ah, the foolishness of youth! Of course we told the police that it was our Swedish chambermaid. The Palestinian flag was very illegal for many years, but during the Oslo period that changed.
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/11/2009 @ 07:45PM PT
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I'm sorry, but this is really outrageous. Those who defend Israel's actions: How on earth can you say that Israel is being forced to kill children? No one put a gun to their head, and if they're only targetting Hamas compounds, then why are we seeing images of dead children? Why are schools and Mosques being bombed?
Charles, does it really matter what we call it? Do you think the people who are suffering right now in Gaza really CARE what we call this horrible situation? Didn't you see "Hotel Rwanda"? Remember that scene where all the U.S. politicians are sitting around and debating about what constitutes a genocide?
Sorry Charles, but your views are really distorted. When we call this situation a genocide, we're not even thinking about making the association with Jews. The word "holocaust" is not limited to Jews only. We're not trying to "score points" -- this is not some kind of game here.
I was at the counter-protest to the "Stand With Israel" demonstration recently and we were there to engage in peaceful and mature dialogue. Instead we were met with excessive racism and insults. An old man told my Palestinian friend, "we should have killed you all." She didn't even say anything to him! On any other day, we would have been treated as fellow human beings, but since we were standing on a different side of the park and wearing Palestinian scarves, we were treated like subhumans. Another man cursed off my non-Muslim female friend, and another man said, "you all deserve to die! You're all going to hell!"
None of this gets reported in the media, of course. We had three huge protests in Philadelphia for Gaza (I video taped them all and I interviewed Jewish protesters and Palestinian protesters), and nothing was reported on the news about it. Instead, we just see a report that is less than a minute long and interviews with older Palestinians who could hardly speak any English. Our words get cut out of newspapers in favor of some pro-Israel supporters saying "the Palestinian supporters are terrorists." We are NOT terrorists, we're fellow AMERICANS and if you still don't believe us, then please, TALK to us. Let's sit down and talk instead of yelling at each other and passing judgment. The Pro-Israel rally received three minutes of coverage (plus "pre-game" coverage on the day before) and they were on the front page of our local newspaper. My friends and I have been writing to local newspapers since Thursday, just PLEADING for someone to listen to us, but we have not heard from anyone yet.
The Muslim community is frustrated with how the media depicts them, Charles. Writing about what you call a situation is just a really insulting attempt at trying to dodge what is going on. Can we reach some common ground and call this situation an atrocity, please? Over 800 people in Gaza are dead right now and we really need to transcend the labels that divide us. Do not look at sides, just look at the bodies. What were their crimes? Palestinian blood, Israeli blood -- it's all human blood.
Don't say that our protesters don't do anything to help people. If you really came to our protests, you would have seen many people touched by them. Why don't you post the pictures of the signs that read "Muslim, Christian, Jew = Human Being"? Why don't you post the signs that say "COEXIST"? Why don't you watch any of my videos on YouTube where the Muslim speakers emphasize strongly, "This is NOT a dispute between Muslims and Jews, we are all brothers, fathers, and cousins."
Isn't that what we are, Charles? The Children of Abraham? Should we not stand up for each other? I'm making a short film right now called "Daughters of Abraham" which is about three young women -- a Muslim, a Christian, and a Jew -- and it's about their friendship and how it transcends the political tension and conflict in the world. These are the kind of projects we need to be working on.
Posted by J D on 01/11/2009 @ 08:49PM PT
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And if you want to talk about semantics, then stop saying "anti-Semitism" when referring to anti-Jewish sentiments.
Arabs are Semites too, friend.
Posted by J D on 01/11/2009 @ 08:57PM PT
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I started to leave a comment and it became so long that I had to write a blog post:
http://www.isaacholeman.org/2009/01/11/what-is-genocide/
I agree with Michelle at the change.org Stop Genocide blog when she said that “I have yet to see anything that shows that Israel has set out to systematically wipe out the Palestinian people from the face of the planet.”
It seems to me that the subset of Palestinians who proscribe to a radical and violent version of Islam are a religiously/cultural/ideologically distinct group from other Palestinians, and that Israel would like to violently exterminate 100% of this radical group. By your definitions (and mine) this seems to constitute genocide, though only against a small subset of all of Palestinians.
In my blog post I go into detail about why naming this conflict genocide could be productive. If the label genocide helps us understand that the goal of this conflict is to drastically alter an entire cultural group/worldview (rather than just revenge or scare tactics), it becomes more clear (to me at least) that there are peaceful alternatives to promote culture change.
Just saying "we need to negotiate" doesn't get to the underlying issue that we will never see peace until we see our cultures change enough so that we are all able to communicate better and be more tolerant of each other.
I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts.
cheers
Isaac
Posted by Isaac Holeman on 01/11/2009 @ 11:24PM PT
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J D, you are mostly wrong. The word 'Semitic' was originally applied to linguistic, not ethnic groups. So Arabic and Hebrew are Semitic languages. In the late 19th Century, during the flowering of 'scientific racism', the term 'antisemitism' was invented specfically to refer to Jews. It had nothing to do with Jews as Semites - after all, most Jews were not speakers of a Semitic language, at least not in Europe.
With the rise of the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts, some uninformed observers have tried to establish that since Arabic is a Semitic language, then Arabs are Semites; and therefore, antisemitism refers to some kind of bizarre, historic hatred of both Arabs and Jews, a trend that has never existed in actual fact.
It's an idea brought out to tweak the noses of Jews, as if to say 'you can stop accusing others of being antisemitic now, because if Arabs are Semites, then none of it makes sense.' At the heart, it's ignorance compounded by a dark sarcasm, spread by a second tier of perhaps well meaning but even more ignorant folks.
Not only are Arabs not Semites, even Jews aren't Semites. Semites aren't an ethnic group, never have been. There is no group called 'Semites' known to be victims of a historic hatred. And by now, we all know that Jews themselves represent an incredibly diverse genomic group; any effort to define the Jewish people using genetic traits must fail given the vast differences between Jews from different parts of the world. (Which is not to deny that some traits are prevelant among some Jewish communities, such as genetic diseases.)
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/12/2009 @ 06:29AM PT
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Charles, that is absolutely absurd to say that I'm trying to ignore anti-Jewish sentiments. All I said is that if you're going to get into semantics, then you should be aware of the words that you're using as well.
The dictionary's definition of Semitic is: "a subfamily of Afroasiatic languages that includes Akkadian, Arabic, Aramaic, Ethiopic, Hebrew, and Phoenician."
You even acknowledged that Arabic is a Semitic language, yet at the same time, you're saying that including the Arabs in the Semitic group is an idea "brought out to tweak the noses of Jews" and "ignorance compounded by a dark saracasm."
No, there is no "dark sarcasm" here. Of course, anti-Jewish sentiments exist, I am not denying that. I am in the field of Islamophobia in the United States, but I also study the discrimination and prejudice that other groups face as well, including Jewish-Americans.
I like how you ignored everything else I said (like the way I was treated at the Pro-Israel rally, my inter-faith film, and the fact that our debating over what to label this situation doesn't help the thousands of people who are suffering right now).
Posted by J D on 01/12/2009 @ 08:45AM PT
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J D, if I don't address everything you have to say, it's because I don't have something useful to add. This isn't a forum for me to persuade every person who comes here. For all you know, I ignore the things that I'm sympathetic towards.
Regarding the Semitism issue, I'm telling you about the origins of the term and how it gets misused. Professor Joseph Massad has probably done a better job than myself in explaining the issue. He writes:
"The defensive claim made by some that Arabs cannot be "anti-Semitic" because they are "Semites" is equally erroneous and facile. First, I should state that I do not believe that anyone is a "Semite" any more than I believe anyone is an "Aryan", and I do not believe that Arabs or Jews should proudly declare that they are "Semites" because European racists classified them as such. But if the history of European Christian anti-Semitism is mostly a history targeting Jews as objects of discrimination and exclusion, the history of European Orientalism and colonialism is the one that targeted Arabs and Muslims, among many others."
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/720/op63.htm
In other words, I'm not saying that you are a bad person, only that the claim that the word antisemitism somehow includes prejudice against Arabs is incorrect. The origins of that trend are in a defensive posture from some Arabs, reacting to the tragedies of modern history.
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/12/2009 @ 09:03AM PT
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Charles, I am one who believes that no one has the monopoly on suffering. Jews do not have the monopoly on genocide and on the Holocaust. By saying this I do not mean and I do not intend to diminish any of the suffering and genocidal murders that Jews were subjected to.
In February of 2008, a minister in the current Israeli government promised a "Shoa" (catastrophe and commonly understood as referring to the Holocaust) in Gaza--how easily do we forget!!!
As to the use and definition of genocide, you did not to have to go to another blogger but rather to the UN. Here is the entry from Wikipedia: "The term genocide has been defined by the UN a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as 'any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.' "
Reviewing the history of Palestine and the conflict it becomes clear that the Palestinians were victims to and are subject to genocide. You might argue that no UN agency has recognized that and that is true. I wonder why? (Sarcastic and rhetorical question just in case someone misses it).
Posted by A N on 01/12/2009 @ 09:16AM PT
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We can agree that no one has a monopoly on suffering. Personally, I think the holocaust (the event and the word) is way over-used in conversations about Israelis and Palestinians. Maybe we should stop raising it all the time as a way to try and win arguments?
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/12/2009 @ 09:37AM PT
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I agree with you, Aref! Thank you for being a breath of fresh air on this thread.
I worry that some people won't see the genocide that is taking place against the Palestinians until many years from now. Just like when the holocaust occured, the Nazis dehumanized and vilified the Jews so that the rest of the country didn't feel sorry about killing them.
The most dangerous kind of racism and violence is when it's made more acceptable in society. It goes over people's heads and discussions such as debating whether or not this is a justice is just a way of ignoring the reality at hand: Nearly one thousand people have been killed, with thousands more wounded.
I also mentioned that Israeli defense minister who threatened a holocaust on the Palestinian people. There have been remarks made in the past by Israeli government officials that were genocidal and racist.
Charles, when you speak about discrimination and exclusion of Jews by Europeans, did you forget that Muslims were also exiled, forced into Christianity, or killed during the Spanish Inquisition in 1492? Did you forget that the Crusaders slaughtered and butchered Muslims and Jews when they took Jerusalem during the first Crusade?
If pro-Israel supporters in Philadelphia can be so confident and approach my friends and say, "There is no such thing as Palestine!" or "We should have killed you all!" or "you all deserve to die!" would you not accuse them of making genocidal remarks?
Posted by J D on 01/12/2009 @ 09:38AM PT
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10:36am: 8 Hamas rockets fired from Gaza hit Israel, including the cities of Ashdod and Ashkelon
8:07pm: 18 more rockets hit Israel. So far today, Hamas fired 34 rockets from Gaza into Israel
12:26pm: 16 additional Hamas rockets hit Israel, injuring an infant in the town of Gedera
8:27am: 2 Hamas rockets hit Israel. In 2008, 3278 rockets and mortar shells hit Israel
Live Updates
I'm tired of hearing that the jews are comitting genocide here are the updates as far as Jan 12. I get them every day
Posted by Ellaine Janicki on 01/12/2009 @ 09:40AM PT
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Ellaine,
Maybe you should have attended the Gaza protests because then you would have understood that this is not a conflict between Muslims and Jews. At our rallies, we make it very clear that Jews, Muslims, and Christians are Abrahamic brothers and sisters. One man at our rally had a sign that had the Star of David and the Nazi symbol, and a Jewish woman (who was supporting our cause) called him out on it. He apologized deeply and many Muslims showed their support for the Jewish woman. I personally sent her an e-mail and told her that I am totally against signs like that. She even told the newspaper that the rest of the rally was peaceful and respectful to all people, regardless of religious background.
But when went to countr-protest a Pro-Israel rally, we were met with profanity, racism, and genocidal remarks. No one even cared about listening to us. The Jews were called "self-hating Jews" and the Palestinians and Muslims were cursed off.
You said you're tired of hearing that "Jews are committing genocide." We are not accusing the Jews. We are accusing the Israeli government. I condemn Hamas for firing those rockets, but look at how many people Israel has killed in retaliation? What is so wrong with communicating and engaging in dialogue. Why hasn't Israel lifted the blockade in Gaza, where 1.5 million Palestinians are deprived of basic necessities such as food, clean water, electricity, and medicine?
You know what we Muslims are tired of? We're sick and tired of people accusing us of being terrorists or "terrorist sympathizers." We're tired of being cut out of the news all the time, while Pro-Israel rallies get glorified and immense coverage. Not a single newspaper got back to me and my friends, who have been writing since Thursday about how we were treated at the Pro-Israel rally.
At least the majority of the media is on your side, Ellaine. Walk in our shoes for a day and learn how it feels. Did anyone ever spit in your face just because you told them you were Muslim? Did you ever get fired from your job just because some random customer called you a "terrorist" for no reason other than your skin color? I have.
Posted by J D on 01/12/2009 @ 09:58AM PT
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J D, if you see my post from yesterday on how EI punked some Israeli intelligence effort, you'll see my comments below. I actually deleted two comments (one from Aref!). It was from someone more or less denying the existence of the Palestinian people (and then Aref getting upset....)
I do think that parts of the Israeli and Jewish right wing are deeply racist, and I'm not going to allow them a voice here. You might say that a condition of being allowed to participate in these discussions is a willingness to accept the existence of the other, with respect. If you can't do that, what's the point of coming to change.org in the first place?
Muslims in the U.S. suffer from a lot of prejudice. I've actually asked a CAIR leader to post here; sadly, he hasn't followed up on my offer.
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/12/2009 @ 10:29AM PT
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Ellaine,
I am sorry for the Israeli civilians that got killed or injured because of the rockets. I really am.
May I ask you a question? Are you also tallying how many bombs were dropped on Gaza in last 17days alone? Please don't tell me it is the fault of Hamas, because those bombs are dropped from Israeli fighter planes, helicopters and drones and Israeli tanks and artillery. Are you also tallying the number of children killed in Gaza? As I mentioned, I am not saying this to prove that one suffered more than the other. Israeli suffering has no more or less value than the suffering of any other human being.
There are ways of ending all of this. It boils down to a very simple thing and that is allow people to live and lead a normal life. Respect peoples choices even if you do not agree with them. Do you believe that this will achieve any security for Israel? Do you believe for a second that a child who has seen his father, mother, brother or sister blown up is not going to hate those whom he or she deem responsible for their death? Putting people in a huge prison (ghetto is more appropriate) with all access of good and people controlled by Israel is not letting people live or lead a normal life. The blockade of Gaza is not a recent development but has been going on for two years. That does not provide an incentive for anyone to extend a hand in peace--and there were several all rejected by the Israeli government. Please note that I do not criticize the Israeli people many of whom are decent peace loving people just like all other peoples. I am criticizing a government with a political agenda. At the risk of appearing patronizing please take a closer and critical look at things: they are not always what they appear to be.
Posted by A N on 01/12/2009 @ 10:32AM PT
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I appreciate that, Charles. As for CAIR, I'm sure they will post something soon. They were the only organization that helped me when I experienced discrimination.
The Muslim community is not only burdened with condemning terrorism, but also with defending our religion and culture. It's hard to be in anti-terrorism groups and then read an Islamophobic remark.
No one should ever feel responsible for a crime that they did not commit. I think a lot of misconceptiosn and stereotypes get placed on Muslims for what is happening in Gaza. Muslim-Americans are very much part of the United States just as much as every other group of people.
I pray for the Israeli victims too; we're all human beings and creations of the same God.
Thank you for understanding.
Posted by J D on 01/12/2009 @ 10:59AM PT
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To respond: "I'm sorry, but this is really outrageous. Those who defend Israel's actions: How on earth can you say that Israel is being forced to kill children? No one put a gun to their head, and if they're only targetting Hamas compounds, then why are we seeing images of dead children? Why are schools and Mosques being bombed?"
Hamas attacks from civilian areas. That is why you are seeing images of dead children. When civilians and Hamas terrorists are in the same area, then attacking the terrorists will, unfortunately, result in civilian deaths. The numbers cited above for rocket attacks on Israel were only for a few days (with the exception of the total tally for 2008). Hamas has been attacking Israel with rockets for years. Israel attempts to hit Hamas. But Hamas keeps stays in civilian areas. Hamas also doesn't use uniforms, making it hard to distinguish between terrorist and civilian. Therefore, Israel's attacks will hit civilians. Israel keeps it's military bases away from civilian areas. However, Hamas has been firing directly at civilian areas.Israel tries to avoid civilian deaths, while Hamas tries to cause civilian deaths.Do I agree with everything Israel has done? No. Israel could use more precise weapons. Israel could have given the UN a 24 hour notice to evacuate the school, and not used mortars to attack the school (mortars are by no means precise). But do I think that, ultimately, Israel has the higher moral ground? Yes.
Regarding racism on both sides: Racism, by anyone, is wrong. But a few examples of the worst people from rallies doesn't mean that all (or even most) people who support either side are racist.
Regarding ethnic cleansing: Israel has never engaged in ethnic cleansing. Palestinians citizens are given the same legal rights as Israeli citizens. Before 1967, Jews were not allowed to visit the Western Wall. Now, Israel allows all people to visit the Western Wall. On the other hand, Hamas has called for the destruction of Israel.
Posted by An_Ony_Mouse I don't give this stuff out on 01/13/2009 @ 10:36AM PT
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Please get your facts straight and don't regurgitate lies and propaganda. As to "all people" having access to religious sites well ask a young Palestinian from the West Bank if they can go to Jerusalem to pray. As to treating Arab citizens equally to Jews is that why Arab parties were banned from participating in the upcoming elections? Is that why Arabs are not allowed to buy homes in certain areas in Israel? I can give you more examples if you wish. Don't think that people here are gullible and don't know the facts.
Posted by A N on 01/13/2009 @ 11:45AM PT
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It's hard for some folks to hold contradictory ideas at the same time....
Israel treats minorities better that most countries in the Middle East - and less well than the standard for western democracies.
Israel opened up some religious sites for more Jewish use, but also made it harder for Muslims to access sites in Hebron and Jerusalem.
Under Jordanian rule, Jews were expelled AND access to holy sites was non existent.
The Israeli elections committee tried to keep two Arab parties from running, BUT the high court is expected to reinstate them. And at least two other 'Arab' parties were not treated in this way.
It's a mixed bag folks.... Israel/Palestine is complicated!
Posted by Charles Lenchner on 01/13/2009 @ 12:25PM PT
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