I'm also not sold on HIS idea of one state, but I think the two state solution is actually a step in the direction of a unified "Isratine." If we take the two state road, it will be necessary to nurture the relationship between Israel and Palestine. Open trade, and allow worker visas between them. The steel industry played a major role in bringing Germany and France together after centuries of conflict and now they coexist in the European Union. Setting up two seperate nations and leaving them to stew in hate, glaring at eachother over concrete walls is only a formula for disaster.

Where I don't agree with Qaddafi is the idea of giving property back to the Palestinians based on where they were in 1948. To do so would be to disenfranchise the Jews who have built their own livelyhoods on that land for 60 years. To take it back borders on vengeance - what the Palestinians need is just compensation, most likely in the form of construction of new homes and creation of new jobs and opportunities and funding of it from Israel and the international community. 

Absolutely. I think the importance of Qaddafi is that he is taking a mature approach to the presence of Jews in the Middle East. He affirms that the narrative might not be his, but it exists; the people might not have arrived in a wholesome manner, but they are here. What to do now?

I think that it's easier to open up more options for peace after more parties to the conflict make the stride forward that he has. Meaning that Israelis and Jews need to work on accepting the Palestinians, including those who voted for Hamas, while Palestinians, even if they reject the idea of Israel and the validity of any Jewish claim, need to accept that Israeli identity doesn't really allow for non-Jewish votes, with the possible exception of the Palestinian minority within Israel.

(Yes, it's ethnocentric and possibly racist - but all nationalisms carry that side of the equation.)

Japan is probably the most racist nation, followed by Switzerland, no one objects to those nations, it is entirely legit.

As far as Qaddafi, he is in a sneaky way trying in my mind to eliminate Israel, the one state solution will do it in a none violent way, and Israel will never let that happen. The Palestinians have many places to go, Israel has none.

The right of return that the Palestinains are trying to negotiate will have the same result, the end of Israel.

In principal, the Palestinians are still trying to eliminate Israel, only the methods very, if not by force then by demographics.

Charles you have to be very careful on who and what you support, because you may inadvertently support the destruction of Israel, and I am sure you do not want that.

Racism is legit? That speaks volumes about you and your fear of demographics.

Jeremy,

I did not say racism is legit, don't misquote me. What I said is that both Japan and Switzerland are legit countries, and both are racist, i.e. you have to be born in Switzerland to be a citizen, no immigrants, same for Japan.

I have no fear of demographics, it is a simple fact, a one state solution will elliminate Israel, call it demographics or whatever you want, the end will be the same. If that is what you want, then please state it.

I didn't mean to missquote you but if two sovereign nations (in other words, legitimate), within their sovereignty, establish laws/policies/etc... that are racist in nature, those are legitimate racist laws, correct?... legitimate racism - as I said. But just because there is a law about it, doesn't make it morally right. We discovered that in the States.
I guess I'm confused about why you pointed it out? Are you using it's legitimacy to defend it? Are you saying that the Israelis - the sovereign/legit power, have the right to expel a group of people, based on their ethnicity to preserve their own?
And to be clear, I don't want Israel to be eliminated. The culture is beautiful and worth preserving, but I also don't mind integration if that is the result of the two populations living together in peace.
And for future reference, birth rates have a strong correlation with poverty levels. 

What I am saying is that to allow millions of Palestinian refugees into the state of Israel would be suicidal. And that any state has the right to refuse immigrants of its choice. Japan and Switzerland are examples of states that do not allow any immigrants. Israel is an immigrant state, that allows any Jew citizenship. The US allows immigrants on a limited number and quote per country.

The Palestinians already live there. I'm not concerned with them preventing more from coming in but the conflict we've all been discussing is about the ones that are already there. And you did not deny my question: "Are you saying that the Israelis - the sovereign/legit power, have the right to expel a group of people, based on their ethnicity to preserve their own?" Here's another chance...

According to Israel law, the State of Israel cannot expel a person or group of any ethnicity. The state will prosecute any person that acts to endanger the state of Israel.

That may be the current law. Considering Israel's technical sovereignty, there's nothing saying they can't change the law to allow that expulsion. Laws change all the time. Very fluidly and often without conflict. Do you think that Israel, exercising its sovereignty, has the right (now to change that law and..) to expel a group of people, based on their ethnicity to preserve their own? 
It's a yes or no question. 

Jeremy, a right by who? What does that mean the right?

Israel is the only democracy in the ME. Israel has over 30 parties running every four years for government, it has a communist pary and several Arab parties.

I don't understand your question, are you asking my personal opinion?

You just answered your own question, any country can generate any laws that it choices to, according to its constitution. So what RIGHT are you looking for here?

Yes, I'm asking for your personal opinion. Do you think Israel, the nation of Israelis and the democratic government that it elects, has the MORAL right to expel people based on their ethnicity in order to preserve their own?

NO

Jeremy,

Just over 60 years ago, the UN voted to divide Palestine into two, roughly half to the Arabs and half to the Jews, according to demographics.

The Jews immediately declared statehood and started to build a state. Today Israel is a world economical, cultural, military and technological power.

The Arabs immediately attacked the new state of Israel and tried to eliminate it. Then tried again in '56, '67, and '73. And still today Hamas Iran and Hizbellah are trying to destroy Israel.

Instead they could, with all the wealth of the Arab world have built a state just like Israel, but they have only tried to eliminate Israel and have created nothing of their own.

So who has the moral high ground?

My opinion does not count in this matter, the truth does, and I support Israel in its decisions.

"NO"

Fantastic! Neither would I. I'm glad we have this in common and it certainly makes what I'm trying to do easier.


Gaza (and the West Bank) because of Israeli retaliation to those attacks and thanks to the UN decisions, are part of Israel - Israel claims sovereignty over that land. Yet Palestinians live there and they want to stay.  Now you are stuck with two families in one house who are currently in violent conflict and you've excluded expulsion of the Palestinian population as an option. Now, violence begets violence (unless of course you obliterate the opposition which, again you've already ruled out) - this saying has passed down for centuries because it's true. It's a primal law - but we humans also adhere to the non-discriminatory, spiritual law of compassion and reason - basically, if you hit someone, they're going to hit you back UNLESS (and this is important) they like you enough not to. 

Now, you're in this country with your family, and another family is there and they're angry at you, and they just hit you. You know hitting them back when they don't like you will only result in them striking you again.  You don't want to leave, and neither do they. You're already committed to NOT forcing them out. What do you do? 

It was fabulous, Michael, you almost hit the nail on the head in another thread when you said: "I think this will take decades, and has to start with reeducating the population that Israel is not the enemy..." 

Israel does expel people - every day. Here's how:
Residents of East Jerusalem who have a life in the West Bank are having their residency rights taken away. Children and spouses of those who live there are denied residency, thus forcing the entire family to give up residency.

Then there is the racist law passed in Israel that prevents Palestinians who marry other Palestinians from bringing in their spouse, if that person was not previously an Israeli citizen.

And then we have the simple fact that Israel will not allow peopel born within what is now Israel and/or the West Bank to have the right to return to the place where they were born. Expulsion is one of two ways to commit the crime of depriving a person of nationality; the other way is to strip a person of legal status or to prevent someone from returning to the country of their birth.

Not only that, but the residents of the villages of Ikrit and Biram (by way of example) are not allowed to return home despite repeated promises made the time of their expulsion. Note that these people are legal residents of Israel whose land was openly stolen.

And then you have the Bedouin in the Negev. They are having homes and mosques destroyed, agricultural lands razed and poisened, and they live in unrecognized villages stuck without state services such as electricity and connection to the water/sewage networks. Why? Because the state is trying to kick them out of the lands they were settled on BY ISRAEL.

Not to mention all the other instances of land expropriations that have taken place within Israel, aimed at the Palestinian minority, since 1948.

Sigh.

Frankly when it comes to the Arab-Israeli conflict, Qaddafi is the only one who makes sense. The one state solution address the issues of the Palestinian refugees, it addresses the issues of Jewish settlers and settlements, it address the issue of Israeli Palestinians living as second class citizens,it address peace and security. I think the combination will be super dynamic and will create a powerful partnership between the two people. Blacks and White were able to form one state in South Africa after hundreds of years of conflict and apartheid rule, certainly Jews and Arabs who lived together and prospered together for centuries could relive again together. The golden age of Judaism not in Czarist Russia or Nazi Germany but in partnership with Muslims. The conflict contrary to what die hard Zionist claims is not centuries old but arose of a Zionist commitment to empty the land and exile the Palestinians. I am committed to it as a matter of principal and goal. Qaadfi is the only sane person when it comes to the Israeli-Arab conflict. A worth all of the efforts. It takes forward visionary Jewish and Palestinian leadership. Think of all of the great possibilities.The idea of peace for Israel let alone a one state solution may not fit well with the leadership of the American Jewish community and AIPAC. Peace for Israel will put AIPAC and the leadership out of business and out of political power in the US. Peace can save us tax payers billions of dollars annually and it create goodwill and safety and security for America and Americans around the world. Israel will then give up killings and destruction as a business and turn toward economic development in the entire Middle East.

" It is a fact that Palestinians inhabited the land and owned farms and homes there until recently, fleeing in fear of violence at the hands of Jews after 1948 — violence that did not occur, but rumors of which led to a mass exodus. It is important to note that the Jews did not forcibly expel Palestinians."

This has to be a typo. How in the world could an Arab leader not know Palestinians were forcibly expelled in 1948?

@Gregory- isn't it bizarre? I think - and this is pure conjecture - that he accepts that the departure of Palestinians was a combination of explusions and flight that were not undertaken as part of a grand scheme. This is the most pro-Israel version that is remotely defensible, as it still accepts that some expulsions (Lydda, Ramle, etc.) took place while many left under more ambiguous circumstances.

All this from a guy who backed Abu Nidal once upon a time. Sheesh.

Charles don't you sleep its after midnight?

As Israel populated much of the Palestinian lands, it has forgone a two state solution. What is needed is one democratic, secular state that includes Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Israel worked closely with South Africa's white regime and cooperatively developed nuclear weapons. South Africa, with its vast African majority, has become a democracy that dismantled its "homelands", apartheid system, and nuclear facilities.  It is time for Israel to find a similar solution.The USA must stop supporting Israel.  People in much of the world consider Israelis  to be racist: a few injured or killed Israelis were avenged by killing hundreds of Arabs.  Collective punishment, as often used by Israel, is a form of terrorism.  The conditions in which many Palestinians live are reminiscent of concentration camps.  It is time for democratic governance that includes all parts of Palestine and that respects international laws. 

Heinz Aeschbach, MD humane-civilization.org

Heinz, I am very surprised to see someone with your education and resume comparing what Israel is doing to the Nazi concentration camps.

It tells me you have not a clue what the concentration camps where like, with a German name, that surprises me even more.
 
My grandparents and 6,000,000 Jews were slaughtered for no more reason than their identity, they never harmed anyone.

Israel is now acting in self defense, after eight years and 11,000 rockets and mortars launched at civilians. I think Israel has earned the right for self defense. What would you do? What would any country do?

Think about it, what has Israel to gain by controlling millions of Palestinians, nothing. If Israel wanted to eliminate them they would be long gone.

The opposite Israel has gone to extreme lengths to avoid harming civilians. The Germans in WWII went to extreme lengths to systematicaly slaughter as many Jews in as short a time as possible.

Their should have been today 60,000,000 jews, instead only a fraction inhabit the world. And you compare that to Israel's self defense actions., against thugs and criminals, Hamas is no better then the Taliban, they do not represent the Palestinian people any more than the Nazis represented the German people. Hitler came to power by being elected, that does not make what he did legit. Hamas was elected because they coerced the Palestinians, and Israel warned the US that this would happen.

Hamas is responsible for every child and civilian killed in Gaza.

Michael - we were having a productive exercise in logic. Please continue, we were making progress. Scroll on up and respond to my most recent scenario.

So Jeremy, Israel is not going to expel people, but also was founded on the idea of after the Jews were prosecuted for hundreds of years, they will have a homeland, Israel.

So the better solution is two states side by side living in peace, just like Mexico and US. We have many Mexicans living in the US and vice-versa, no one is talking about one state USMexico.

The UN in 1947 divided Palestine into two entities, Israel agreed, the Arabs still do not, therefore we have a war.

So who is not wanting to live in peace, the Arabs or Israel? One side only is living in a fantasy of having all of ancient Palestine for itself, that is what they mean when the Arabs say a one state solution, its a code for the elimination of Israel.

Apartheid South Africa was a democracy too.

"This has to be a typo. How in the world could an Arab leader not know Palestinians were forcibly expelled in 1948?"

Gregory, this is called pandering. He wants to be seen as the "good guy" -- a born again so to speak.

It is funny that you are all here wanting Peace while blaming the Arabs for not accepting the Palestinians in their countries or blaming them on not accepting teh division by the UN in 1947. Some also want Israel to be a Jewish only state. So what are you going to do with the Muslims and Christians in Israel, throw them into the sea? I don't think so
How about we consider co-existance, end the occupation in the West Bank, put down the Aparthied wall, left the road blocks, left the air, sea and land embargo on Gaza, compensating the refugees, start talking to Hamas and Jihad and Fatah. I do support the One State solution as it is the ONLY solution to the conflict. Though I dislike Qaddafi as he is a typical Arab regime who has took his country a 1000 years back, but some of his talk makes sense to me

Algeria – 2,400k sq km

Egypt – 1,000k sq km

Iran – 1,600k sq km

Iraq – 438k sq km

Jordan – 89k sq km

Kuwait – 18k sq km

Libya – 1,760k sq km

Morocco – 447k sq km

Qatar – 11k sq km

Saudi – 2,200k sq km

Syria – 185k sq km

Tunisia – 164k sq km

Turkey – 779k sq km

UAE – 84k sq km

Yemen – 528k sq km

Israel – 21k sq km

TOTAL  AREA OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES  SUROUNDING  ISRAEL:  11,724,000 sq km

558 times the size of Israel.

Ali do you really think the Arab's need another state?

Michael, the trope of Israel is a small country surrounded by larger ones, or Israel is one Jewish state surrounded by Arab/Muslim states, is a stale racist trope.
Racist, because it implies that Palestinians are simply a variant of Arab into which they should blend.
False, because it's an effort to distract from the actual dispossession of Palestinians from their homeland by Jews.

Even if Arabs and Muslims were ten times larger than the figures above. it would not excuse a single Palestinian being dislodged from their rightful home, as continues to happen today, inside Israel (Bedouin's in the Negev), along the route of the fence, and in Gaza.

I dont care from who the word unity comes, all i want to say is that its positive than seperation.as the world is getting smaller(more inter connected),we must try to live together as one to make the world a better place.Living seperatly because of our beleives will never be the everlasting solution. I think religion is here to make life better and not life to make religion better.Nobody ever goes to heaven or hell without coming first to this world so let try and make it a better place for all of us choosen to dwell in this world