One, their is no occupation of Gaza, Israel left Gaza fully intact with a flourishing agricultural base, that was immediately turned into a war machine.

Two, the blockade only came as a result of offensive action towards Israel from Gaza, enough with the lies about Israel.

The blockade is a result of the rockets not the opposite, first rockets, suicide bombers, then blockade of arms into Gaza, not for a single day has water, gas and food been blocked, the opposite Israel is supplying Gaza with all of these, even though Gaza gas been attacking Israel for years.

Israel could have left Gaza to its own resort after leaving but no, Israel has and is supplying Gaza with all its essentials.

Innocent until proven guilty? How much more proof is needed? Opposing the war crimes that have been happening is not 'supporting the terrorists.' Actually, supporting the killing of civilians completely fits the definition of supporting terrorism. So it is important to think before throwing such terms and slogans around. The same applies to the old Europe analogy. Now that the tables have turned and Israel's actions resemble the actions of their former oppressors, it is a comparison that is not applicable. Rev. Bookburn - Radio Volta

I agree with Rev.

For anyone doubting, here is an UN report including footage of the illegal white phosphorous attach on a UN school: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7839863.stm

Here is a documented account of the rockets fired into Israel, how they stopped after the June 08 ceasefire between Israel and HAMAS, and how they only restarted after Israel refused to live up to its end of the deal, ending the blockades that have lead to a an extreme humanitarian situation in Gaza where the Palestinians cannot obtain food, water, or necessary supplies: http://216.24.170.159/resources/pdfs/peace/conflict_resolution/Gaza_movement_and_fatalities_report%20FINAL%201%2022%2009.pdf

The blockade on Gaza is only one example of the terrible treatment of the Palestinians ever since they democratically elected HAMAS into government after the US encouraged elections.  Another example is the unpoliced abuse and murder of citizens and arrests without cause, including those of children: http://www.dci-pal.org/english/doclist.cfm?categoryid=2

Hamas acts as a radical wing because they are attacked brutally b the Israelis.  People much more willing to become suicide bombers after their homes are destroyed and their children burned to death by white phosphorous and support for Hamas has grown after Israel’s war crimes against the people of Gaza.  According to many sources, Hamas is willing to enter a long term peace arrangement with Israel if they will stop attacking and blockading Gaza.  Take a look at the work Jimmy Carter has been doing for support: http://www.cartercenter.org/countries/israel_and_the_palestinian_territories.html 

Please write or call the ICC and encourage them to investigate Israel’s war crimes:International Criminal CourtThe HagueBezuidenhoutseweg 99a2594 AC The HagueThe NetherlandsTelephone: +31-70-363-4484Fax: +31-70-364-0259E-mail: cicc-hague@iccnow.org

Kaia, you are inventing stuff as you go along, their is absolutely no mention of phosphorus in this BBC report. The phosphorus was used, if at all for illumination.

The damage you see could have been caused by Hamas booby traps as far as we know. Until their is a full investigation, these are just assumptions.

If you want to join the "hate Israel lobby" please do so but don't make any claims to the truth.

You will be on the wrong side, Israel is fighting international terror funded by Iran and executed by its proxies Hamas and Hizbellah, is you can't see that, and are attached to the lies emanating from the Arab propaganda machine, then you are endangering the West, as the Islamic fundamentalists plan their next attack on us.

Carter is funded to the tune of $10 million a year by Saudi Arabia, so he is biased and will not bite the hand that feeds him.

As far as Hamas being democratically elected, since when is that an excuse for terror, so were Hitler and Stalin democratically elected. And if so then the Gazans are responsible for Hamas's actions and are no longer victims, so you can't have it both ways Kaia, either victims of terror or supporters of terror.

As far as the blockade you got it backwards, the terror and rockets came first then the blockade, and only against weapons, food and water continue to come in to Gaza.

Get your facts straight before you make these extreme accusations against the only democracy in the area.

Do you ever get the feeling you're fighting a Sisyphean battle, Michael?

"As far as Hamas being democratically elected, since when is that an excuse for terror, so were Hitler and Stalin democratically elected. And if so then the Gazans are responsible for Hamas's actions and are no longer victims, so you can't have it both ways Kaia, either victims of terror or supporters of terror."

Did you lift this from Bin Laden's speeches? You never tire of the Nazi comparison, do you?

"Get your facts straight before you make these extreme accusations against the only democracy in the area."

Your comments are just ad hominens now.

"Rev, their is no proof, for example the supposedly UN school was never hit."..."Kaia, you are inventing stuff as you go along, their is absolutely no mention of phosphorus in this BBC report. The phosphorus was used, if at all for illumination."..."Carter is funded to the tune of $10 million a year by Saudi Arabia, so he is biased and will not bite the hand that feeds him."

It's a wonder why Israel's army officials are now scared to venture in Europe because they might be arrested. According to you, they have nothing to hide here as they "don't make any claims to the truth." I'd like to see them testify in court (but that is unlikely and I have doubts about the UN and its jurisdiction in these matters re: Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Kosovo).

Joshua, at least I repeat the truth, and not invent new lies as each day goes by.

Each time another blogger joins in this discussion, I try to explain the Israeli point of view. But alas most of you are so attached to the Arab version with such a clammed mind that I am having little success here.

Outside in the real world, the picture is entirely different.

Israel's actions are justified and will be proven to be so.

Anti-Semites will always be around, that's why Israel has to rely on its strength.

PS Children can't vote. But nothing gets past you.

Re: Ethan Bronner's (very sympathetic to Israel) new piece in the NYT that spoke of a dead baby's legs being eaten by dogs. That really disturbed me.

How about you Michael?

You repeat what YOU believe to be the truth. You interpret YOUR truth based on the sources YOU believe to represent YOUR truth. Do not speak as if you have the monopoly of the narrative here; one side's victory is another side's tragedy. I'm positive everyone at least attempts to gain from each side and each perspective (except for you); I can tell most, if not all, read from Israeli sources (as Ha'aretz is one reliable source of information here). I don't even know what "Arab version" you speak of since most of the reports are coming from (a) the UN and (b) NGO's. Because of the tight measures of control by Israel to let in journalists to report what went on, now people have to rely on witnesses and victims' account versus the IDF strategies and perspectives.

"...clammed mind that I am having little success here." Maybe that has little to do with "clammed mind[s]" than the sheer inadmissibility of the detrimental actions that do seem more and more like war crimes. Hopefully, in your pathetic and very, very vainglorious attempt to bridge the "Israeli point of view" (not as if we don't get enough of that) you have "clammed" your own "mind" (as little that seems to manifest) that you have shut out any attempt to understand what the other side of this equation looks like (ie dead babies with no legs).

"Outside in the real world, the picture is entirely different." Although this is just slim pickings, the pariah status of Israel only increased with these "justified" "actions". Most of it is just pure symbolism but Israel's "point of view" of this massacre is not being swallowed by the "real world".

Strawberries in Gaza
by
Shimon Peres, President of Israel

http://daledamos.blogspot.com/2009/02/video-shimon-peres-tells-it-like-it-is.html

Joshua, listen to President Peres!

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/gaza-school-phosphorus-strike.jpg

How to illuminate a "night sky", according to you.

You want me to listen to Shimon Peres, the man who tried to skew the most one-sided story at Davos? I can listen to him, I just won't believe him.

Hey Michael, listen and read and watch all the statements made by those human rights groups and NGOs!

Peres received the Nobel Peace Prize, Joshua, I think he has a little more credibility than your blogs, HR groups and NGO's.

You don't have to believe him, believe what you want, it does not make a difference, but if you seek the truth, you should listen to all sides.

http://gaia.world-television.com/wef/worldeconomicforum_annualmeeting2009/default.aspx?sn=7017&lang=en

I love that Michael Ross sends out one section of the whole Forum - the members of the forum speaking before Peres were so deep and spoke of solutions.  Peres was told to only discuss from 6/2008 to today and he immediately had to give a history lesson of his version admitting no quilt.

Michael is on his own trip.  Anyone that is compassionate to the Palestinians and their horrible life is a terrorist.  He is incapable of listening to anything that does not praise Israel as an innocent victim.  Michael says listen to all sides but he only believes the Israeli side.  Peace process requires admitting there is a crisis in Palestine - they have been forced from their homes and suffered.  Isreal is blocking aid for them. 

Israel is supplying daily aid to Gaza, even though it is not Israel's responsibility. Egypt on the other hand is not.

The only block is for weapons into Gaza.

As to being forced from homes, if you harbor terrorists, yes you will be forced from your home and it will be blown up, absolutely.

We are at war with the Islamic extremists, you seem to have a very short memory, Mary, 9/11 was not that long ago.

"you should listen to all sides".

Where's your reference to Hamas, Fatah, Al-Jazeera, Human Rights Watch, Breaking The Silence, B'tselem, Amnesty International, PCHR-Gaza, Al-Hayat, the UN, the Red Cross, holy fuck, who else here? You even dismissed Jimmy Carter for being funded by Saudi Arabia and yet you are able to take Peres at face value because he "received the Nobel Peace Prize". Is that really how you measure credibility now? I'll make a note of that and reference EVERY Nobel Peace Prize winner.Let's all flood this with Arafat's sources. Wouldn't that be nice and accurate?

"Israel is supplying daily aid to Gaza, even though it is not Israel's responsibility. Egypt on the other hand is not."

They build tunnels for fun. Smuggling medicine and cooking oil seem like a stupid thing to do if Israel "supplies" them. Needless when they could devote all that time smuggling more weapons. What the fuck do they need medicine for? Weapons to make Qassams.

Give us the blueprint of a Qassam please. Better yet, have Peres do it for you.

Study: Israel did not violate war laws.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304702309&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

UN to probe Hamas for use of children

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304702123&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

The truth shall prevail.

Now the UN is probing the use of children as human shields by Hamas.

Another study by the US shows that Israel did not violate war crimes.

So please all you lynchers, don't be so quick to condemn Israel.

Now you reference the UN? You only reference what is good and not bad huh? Very selective.

The UN is only LOOKING into the accusations of using children as shields - that does not mean it happened.   The EU are also looking into Israel's use of white phosphorous at civilian populations - why didn't you mention that?    You are not going to solve any problems by only seeing one side as all bad and the other guy as "can do no wrong."    You never mention the children of Palestine. 

A finding of the UN also states:  Speaking to the Post, Coomaraswamy said that "some parts of Gaza have been completely destroyed." "Many of the children I met there vividly described very troubling experiences. Besides their material needs, I think there is a much traumatized population that needs help," she said. The situation in Gaza is still "very raw because it's only been two weeks," she said, adding that many of the children she met there on Tuesday were "obviously very angry at Israel, but they have been guided that way by their parents and others." Michael Ross is Dick Cheney in disguise.  I can't tell the difference between the two.   

Josh, you take care of the bad, why be repetitive.

  Moral Blindness on Gaza

By Alan M. Dershowitz
FrontPageMagazine.com | Wednesday, February 04, 2009

Bill Moyers holds himself out to be a moral arbiteur, based in large part on
his commitment to Christian principles. Cardinal Renato Martino is a prince
of the Catholic church and President of the Council for Justice and Peace.
Former President Jimmy Carter preaches peace, based on the teachings of
Jesus. Yet when it comes to the conflict between Israel and Hamas, all three
are morally blind.
In a widely watched television assessment of the recent conflict in Gaza,
here is what Moyers said: "By killing indiscriminately the elderly, kids,
entire families, by destroying schools and hospitals, Israel did exactly
what terrorists do." (emphasis added) Of course he also included the
obligatory hedge that: "Every nation has the right to defend its people."
Cardinal Martino went even further, making an obscene and historically
ignorant, comparison between Israel's self-defense actions against rockets
fired by Hamas at Israeli children, and the Nazi genocide against the Jews
during the Holocaust. He said that the conditions in Gaza "resembles a big
concentration camp."
Concentration camps, of course, were places where Jews were held until they
could be processed through the machinery of death, as part of a massive
genocidal program that willfully murdered 6 million Jews. Any comparison
between Israel's action in Gaza and those of Nazis during the Holocaust is
not only obscene, it is blatantly anti-Semitic, which is supposed to be a
sin under Vatican law. (It is apparently not, however, a sin for a Catholic
bishop to deny that the Holocaust occurred at all, since Bishop Richard
Williamson of Great Britain was welcomed back into the Catholic church after
claiming that there were no gas chambers and that the Jews are lying when
they say that 6 million of them were killed, when according to that bigot in
robes, a mere 300,000 Jews died during the entire Holocaust. The batty
bishop-who, like the Taliban, opposes higher education for women-also
believes that no airplanes were involved in the 9/11 attack and that the
buildings were blown up by explosives and rockets, presumably set and fired
by the United States and Israel.)
An essential aspect of Christian teaching, and especially of Catholic
teaching, is the important principle that distingusihes between
intentionally killing an innocent person, and unintentionally killing an
innocent person in the process of legitimately trying to prevent harm to
one's self or others. This concept, known as the principle of double effect,
is central to Catholic theology. It traces its roots to Thomas Aquinas and
has had enormous influence on moral thinking not only within the Catholic
Church, but throughout Christianity and indeed in the secular world as well.
Understanding and complying with this principle may literally mean the
difference between eternal damnation and eternal salvation. That's how
important it is.
Except, apparently, when it comes to the Jewish state of Israel. Then
suddenly moral blindness makes it impossible for church authorities to see,
understand or apply this principle. Cardinal Martino is not the first church
leader to try to create moral equivalence between the actions of Hamas in
willfully and proudly trying to kill as many Jewish children, women and
other civilians as possible, and the actions of the Israeli Defense Forces
in trying to stop them from killing Jewish children, while inadvertently
killing some Palestinian civilians who are used as human shields by Hamas.
The Pope himself has been guilty of invoking such moral equivalence between
these very different actions. Indeed it is fair to say that the Vatican's
entire approach to the Israel-Hamas conflict has been to suggest a false
moral equivalence.
Church leaders know better. They understand precisely what they are doing.
They are making utilitarian, pragmatic and very anti-Catholic cynical
judgments calculated to bolster the influence of The Church in the Middle
East. It might be understandable for secular nations to act in so amoral, if
not immoral, a manner, but it is entirely unacceptable for the Catholic
church, which eschews utilitarianism and preaches moral consistency and
absolutism to act in so cynical a way.
This is especially troubling, because the church tends to forget its own
teachings primarily when it deals with the Jewish people and the Jewish
state. Its long history of discrimination and bigotry against
Jews-slaughtering entire Jewish communities on the way to the Crusades,
murdering entire Jewish communities during the inquisitions, fomenting
pogroms, and signing a pact with Hitler during the Holocaust-should make it
even more concerned about applying a double standard of morality to the
Jewish state. But that's exactly what it does. And then it complains when
critics point to this obvious double standard.
This abuse of great Christian teaching is not limited to the Catholic
church. Bill Moyers and Jimmy Carter both hold themselves out as exemplary
Protestants, whose morality drives from the teachings of Jesus. Yet they too
create false moral equivalence between willful murder, and self-defense that
sometimes results in accidental killings because Hamas deliberately uses
human shields in order to make it impossible for Israel to defend its own
civilians without occasionally killing Palestinian civilians. How else could
one read Moyers statement that what Israel did "was exactly what terrorists
do." Exactly? Well not exactly! Not even close. As different as anything
could be based on principles that Moyers' espouses in other contexts. Listen
to a leading military expert-retired British Colonel Richard Kemp-who
concluded, based on his extensive experience, that there has been "no time
in the history of warfare when an Army has made more efforts to reduce
civilian casualties.than [the Israel Defense Forces in Gaza]." Is that
"exactly what terrorists do," Mr. Moyers?
Jimmy Carter is even worse. He doesn't even see moral equivalence. He blames
everything on Israel. Jimmy Carter should look in the mirror more often and
he will see that he himself bears much of the blame for the death and
destruction that he deplores. In his book, Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid,
he says it would have been "suicidal" for Yasser Arafat to accept the
generous offer made by Bill Clinton and Ehud Barak at Camp David in Taba.
Remember that that offer included independent statehood for the Palestinian
people on all of the Gaza and 97% of the West Bank, an end to all Jewish
settlements, no checkpoints, a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem and a
$35 billion refugee reparation package.

Think for a moment of what Carter is saying when he warns that any
Palestinian leader who might accept such an offer would be assassinated.
What is he saying about the Palestinian people? That they will never accept
peace without violence? That they will always kill their leaders who make
peace with Israel, as the Muslim brotherhood murdered Anwar Sadat of Egypt,
and as Muslim extremists killed the first King Abdullah of Jordan. Whether
he advised Yassir Arafat before the fact to reject the Camp David offer,
which the evidence strongly suggests, or whether he is merely making that
suggestions to future Palestinian leaders, he has clearly become a barrier
to peace. If he in fact told Arafat to reject the offer, then he is an
important contributing cause to the current crisis.
The sad reality is that religious doctrines are as easily manipulated by
cynical churchmen as anything Thomas Bentham ever proposed in the name of
utilitarianism.
Bill Moyers ended a letter to the New York Times in which he defended his
moral equivalency statement by saying that to be indifferent to suffering is
"to be as blind as Sampson in Gaza." No, Mr. Moyers, to be indifferent to
the crucial difference between what terrorists do, namely try to kill as
many civilians as possible from behind human shields, and what democracies
such as Israel and the United States do, namely try to stop terrorists from
killing with the minimum possible injury to civilians, is truly to be
"eyeless in Gaza."
________________________________________
Alan M. Dershowitz is a Professor of Law at Harvard. His most recent book
The Case Against Israel's Enemies: Exposing Jimmy Carter and Others Who
Stand In The Way of Peace is being published by Wiley at the end of this
month.

Yes, Alan Derschovitz is one smart dude  ;-)!

While I have a great respect for former President Carter, who 30 years ago tried to get us onto green energy path, which would have led us a long way to sustainability and independence from oil, some of his dealings around the world cause more damage than good. 

For example, when in Bosnia in 1993, he went to talk to Karadzic (who is now tried as a war criminal in Hague) and to Milosevic in Belgrade  (a convicted war criminal who died in Hague), giving them the credibility and ability to lie about their war crimes.  Carter was well meaning, just as he was well meaning with the situation in the Middle East, but he has no clue about nature of those complicated problems and is easily deceived by skillful sociopaths.  Also, there are elements of anti-semitism in his approach to the problem. 

Same with Bill Moyers.  I almost fell of the futon when I heard his equating Hamas terrorists' actions with that of Israel self-defense.  While Israel sometimes does stupid and counterproductive things, and arrogant settlers in the West Bank are not my cup of tea, one has to recognize the differences between the victims and perpetrators, as well as between cause and effect.