I'm promoting an idea for creating lasting peace in the Middle East and the world. It still needs a lot of votes to make it into the second round. Please help provide a more hopeful vision and alternative to the endless spiral of violence escalating in the Middle East by casting your vote today.  Thank you. 
http://www.change.org/ideas/view/israel_as_cornerstone_for_a_future_united_states_of_earth

I read the proposal and I have to say that I wouldn't go THAT far. It has an odor of megalomania...but...what Abrahamic religion doesn't.

Putting Israel up as a cornerstone for a new world order also puts up Abrahamism as paramount to the other world's religions.  No thanks.

Charles, you should apply for a job with Al-Jazeera, you are doing an excellent job of representing the distorted Palestinian side.

 I hate to say this so openly, but I agree with Mr. Ross. It was shocking for me to read something so bias on this site. After spending some time studying in Israel it is obvious that Mr. Lenchner still has a lot to experience.

Every entity whether it is animal mineral or vegetable needs its own space. Even the clouds need a sky to reside in.

Who has the authority to deny any?

21st century man should be above all this bickering. Regardless of opinion (of which there are many) what mankind needs is education and get away from this "its always the bigger dog on top" mentality. This direction will always lead to confrontation because even little dogs grow up.

What this world really needs is new industry to stimulate economic growth and stability. The only thing that would enable new industry into becoming a reality is ingenuity and ingenuity comes from individuals with inspiration. Inspiration comes from  absorbing what is known by another and expanding upon it.

Therefore our most precious resource is our brain. Every life taken is a wasted opportunity.

Any who would deny the basic right of allowing another to live up to their full potential commits a crime against humanity.

So I'll say it again, I am ashamed of us all.

Some of you are doing an admirable job in rising above the norm and in trying to open hearts and minds but isn't it painfully apparent that there are too many closed minds that won't- for any reason, come to the logical conclusion?

Education that mankind is absorbing is historical in nature and aren't we doomed to repeat it?

No friends, the only education that should be sought is that which makes the world a better place to live for all inhabitants and not merely a selection by those who deem themselves worthy and others as an impediment.

When it all boils down mankind is unworthy with a mindset of this is my space and my air and my thought and I claim it as propietary.

We are all in the same boat, all paddling in the same direction, but the boat is round and even all pulling in the same direction... until we all get together and comprehend which direction we want to go,... we will go nowhere.

Charles, for once you've said something that's pretty true.  Of course, you neglected the deliberate violent terror aimed at civilians that was the premise of Israel's existance in your list of attacks by Israel against civilians - but as a summary of the last 41 years it's pretty good.

I see there are still people who ascribe to the long-standing denial of the existence the Palestinian people, which was part and parcel of Israel's genocidal intent towards them.  This aspect derives mainly from the propaganda campaign initiated by Ben Gurion as an attempt to say the Palestinians were no different from other Arabs and therefore it was OK to "transfer" them.  Of course, when they didn't want be "transferred" they were mass murdered, men and women of all ages, children, non-combatants  not; or threatened with mass murder, and I guess, if they didn't exist, all evidence of their existance must be erased, cultural artifacts, graveyards, villages.

Charles, what are you inventing this as you go along? What a bunch of nonsense.

1. For example how does stopping rocket attacks from Gaza help Israel secure a better position when negotiating on Jerusalem?
2. How do you negotiate with someone that breaks every agreement, like the last truce?
3.Israel has never in its history targeted intentionally civilians, its the Palestinian suicide bombers and rockets that target specifically civilians, you got it backwards, Charles.
4.The only time Israel closed the crossings from Gaza was in response to attacks on Israel from Gaza, again you got it all wrong.
5.Israel offered to Arafat over 93% of the west bank all of Gaza and half of Jerusalem, only to be attacked by hundreds of suicide bombers as a response.
6.Israel has been trying for the last three years to stop the attacks, to no avail, this intervention by force was the last resort after over 5,000 rockets landed on Israel.
7.Hamas wants to destroy Israel, so no myth there.
8.Eliminating the terrorists will certainly help.
9.Many Palestinians are already rejecting Hamas, and soon the PA will be back in control of Gaza.
5.

Charles, it takes courage to speak the truth and you have shown great courage. You have worked for a while in all three nations that are embroiled in this conflict - the US through its support of Israel, the state of Israel and the Palestinian Territories  and are in a position to offer a balanced view.  Thanks

Jennifer, you'd have to study in a Christomadrasa or a EuroJewish school to concoct the twisted "history" that Ross comes up with.

FYI that is NOT history of record.  Historical record shows otherwise.

The Levant hasn't seen Jewish rule since Alexander the Great, and the Muslim Ottomans ruled the area from the 13th century right up to Armistice Day of World War I.  People owned that land before Herzl's thugs were given command of it via spoils of war, and it's Herzl's thugs who wage war against the indigenous people.

If you guys want to support terrorists, you are doing it at your own risk, don't complain when you are targeted next, as we know from 9/11 terror know's no boundary, and by supporting Hamas and its ilk you are putting the whole world at jeopardy.

The Zionists European Jews had said, "There is a land without people for people without land", then proceeded to move the Jewish people from Europe where they were being exterminated and ran the Palestinians out into the desert to die......The birth of Israeli and of the resistence to the invasion.  I hope part of the change to come will be to teach our children the correct history and to stop supporting an invading, militaristic government.

The IDF is doing the world a big favour, at the risk of its soldiers, ridding the world of thugs and terrorists, we should all be applauding this brave effort, in the fight against terror.

Michael, Israeli repression aimed at the Palestinian people is openly discussed in the Israeli press. It is aimed at getting the Palestinian people (and only secondarily the leadership of Fatah and Hamas) to agree to a deal that falls short of the Palestinian side's minimum demands.

When I say 'openly debated' I mean, statements from Dov Weisglass, Sharon's former advisor, more or less stating it for the record, not just journalists making commentary.

I agree with the Palestinian minimum demands, and I get a lot of heat on this site from more extreme supporters of that side, who think that even those bar minimums are not enough to secure peace.

The Palestinians have agreed to a two state solution, a shared Jerusalem, and an extremely limited right of return being implemented. That was, and remains the best option for the survival of Israel. Even Hamas has (again, de facto, and not wholeheartedly) accepted this. The clock is ticking, and the longer Israel waits before taking 'yes' for an answer, the greater the chances of a strategic shift taking place that leaves Israel unable to use its (current) military advantage to secure an agreement.

While folks argue over one state or two and count the bodies in Gaza, we need to remember: the situation could be far, far worse. What if the Israeli Palestinian population turn to more militant leaders? What if the Israeli brain drain continues? What if the economic downturn wreaks havoc on Israeli standards of living, causing more young people to leave? What if Iran goes nuclear, and offers the Arab world a nuclear umbrella? What if the hatred becomes so intense, that in large parts of Israel people are afraid to come out at night or attend large gatherings?

Which is to say, Israel is killing Palestinians not while on the path to a peaceful solution, but on the path to an imposed solution that cannot work. Israel is not bombing while pursuing peace, it is bombing Hamas infrastructure as part of 'conflict management' in which hostility is not only tolerated, but welcomed, provided Israel can keep the impact to its civilian population below a certain threshold.

While I condemn Hamas for engaging in terrorism aimed at Israeli civilians, and reject the violent logic behind it, I can see why they make repeated efforts to extract a cost from Israel's civilian population in an effort to break free of Israeli constraints. I wish the peaceful forces in both peoples, and around the world, could do a better job of protecting the rights of the Palestinian people, and in consequence, the rights of Israelis living with the threat of terrorism.

Ross, there are terrorists driving the Israeli bulldozers, and I remind you of Rachel Corrie.

Kudos, Roxanne!  That's exactly how it is.

"The IDF is doing the world a big favour, at the risk of its soldiers, ridding the world of thugs and terrorists, we should all be applauding this brave effort, in the fight against terror."

Michael it is comments like this that tell me all I need to know about you. You are a cold-blooded cheer-leader who is delusional

Lets take it point by point:
IDF is defence yet are on the offence
-doing the world a big favor <--- by bringing it to the brink?
-risk of its soldiers <-- via aerial bombardment against an ill equipped and impoverished target?
-ridding the world of thugs and terrorists <-- by creating a massive uprising to replace them?
-we should all be applauding <--- definitely a delusion
-this brave effort <--- It is bravery for a Palestinian to face a gun with a rock
-in the fight against terror <--- you mean in the instigation of more terror

Michael, let me make a prediction here.
There will be more death because your mindset doesn't comprehend what it takes to create peace.
I would hope and Pray that those in the Israeli leadership have more compassion to a fellow being than you demonstrate... that remains to be seen but what has been demonstrated so far tells me its doubtful

Charles:
Your ten points are accurate and so refreshing to read. The myth that is perpetuated as Isreal being the ultimate victim has no basis in reality. Israel by definition is an aggressive, occupying, imperialistic, and, yes, racist, state whose stated intent is to control as much of the "so called promised land" at all and any cost. The coconspiritor is the U.S.A which, at taxpayers expense, subsidizes Israel, as one would a client-state. When Israel flexes its military and economic muscle to further its imperialistic goals, whether in Gaza, the West Bank, the Lebanon, Syria, or any other territory it lusts after the imprint it leaves in the minds of the oppressed and the objective observers is..."the USA is at it again." The reasoning that peace in the Near East seems illusive is predicated on the idea that Israel wants peace. Not so, Israel could not exist in peace because the victim theme it perpetuates is the cash cow that keeps on giving. Indeed if Israel is the "promised land" why aren't its European and U.S.A supporters emigrating in droves to Israel? If our President-elect wants to realistically move away from the "more-of-the-same" Near East policy the negative factors of Israel's imperialistic policies have to faced conclusively. When entrenched religious attitudes power the engine of foreign policy, as in the case of Israel, there can be no reasonable, just resolution. Who cares if those least capable of fighting back are victimized by superior "American-Made" armaments; the death of one Israeli must be measured by a factor of at least one hundred to one, or more. The victim mantra has worked so well for Isreal, will it work as well in the Obama years ahead? Don't hold your breath for the dead Palestinians, after all do they really exist?

Charles, your last comments make sense, Israel has never said no to a peace agreement, if what you are saying is true, I am sure Israel will agree, the key is limited return of refugees to Israel, the rest is negotiable.

BTW this ten myth nonsense does not promote peace, it just helps the extremists, not helpful.

Now all we need is a democratic Palestinian authority a true non-coerced one that Israel can sign a deal with, knowing it will be kept.

Alex your suggestion of being an open target, and only then fighting back has been tried before its called the Holocaust.

Thank you Charles for this post.

Leonard, let me take a step back from your heated rhetoric. Most Israelis do want peace. They are victims as well, caught in a political reality that took many years to develop. Most Israelis and most Palestinians are of two minds, at the same time, and it takes the right leadership to make the switch.

Both sides have lots of hate, fear, intolerance. And both want peace and reconciliation. Both blame the other. Both have myths and falsehoods that give them meaning.

It is the job of people who are NOT Israeli, and NOT Palestinian, to step in and intervene, over and above the partisans of each side. When two people are fighting, sometimes you need a third force to pull the two sides apart, regardless of who is on top.

Michael you evaluate WWII as being about the Holocaust yet seem to overlook the underlying cause of it and every war ever fought (and remain to be fought unless we change methodology)

No friend, the root causes of war are economic. It is business on an unprecedented scale. The Holocaust was one aspect of a regime that sought to extinguish all undesirables whether mentally deficient, economically beneficial, geo-politically fortuitous, or opportunistic. All it took to rally a people behind the scheme was saying the right things at the right time then creating an emotional flash-point via the red flag op (Reichstag fire)

This scenario plays out for any war and if no war is pending a cause is created (current conflict case in point)

The only thing that prevents war is for people to wake up and realize that they are being played, have been played, and will continue to be played like a violin. The masters tune the strings and pluck them in the right sequence to create a symphony of death and destruction.

Personally I don't like the beat of war drums but for some that is all they know because that is the environment in which they grew up in. Does this tell you something about perpetuation?

It is never conducive to Peace .

As for being an open target anyone who could take another life for no reason is not only morally and ethically corrupt, they are pure evil. Evil needs to be recognized and with both sides taking pot shots at each other it can't be determined who is really the righteous one.

The last martyr. Or would you rather just keep killing each other and everything else instead?
That makes both parties evil and until one side makes that leap of Faith it will continue to the detriment of all.

Even if one side does take that leap of Faith there is no guarantee since the evil that is conducting misery will take steps to create the illusion that somebody is guilty. This is why there will never be world Peace until the second coming... because people are easily duped into believing.

History teaches well and the money trail never lies.
Qui Bono? Who stands to gain?

I've been watching the pro-Israeli news coverage from Jewish-American media companies all day and wondering how it is that Jews can be the victims of genocide and decades later stand behind policies based on genetic supremacy. Gaza is Auschwitz. As someone whom both the Nazis and the Jews consider genetically impure I'm baffled.

Indeed, Alexander....for the most part.  The cause of World War II was the unresolved issues of World War I, primarily reparations imposed upon Germany and Hitler's promises to restore Germany to its old Holy Roman Empire of Germany status.

Sure, the cause was economic--but it was also religious.  Racist religious.  What's the difference between a Master Race and a Chosen People? Absolutely none.

Diane, Rick, lets try again, Hamas = Taliban, they have the same extreme militant Islamic charter, please check it out online. Would the US allow a militant Islamic organization to take over Tijuana and for three years send over 5,000 rockets on San Diego? I don't think so, neither would any state in the world.

Israel should be admired for her patience with this group, who expelled by force the PA government and now rule Gaza with gangs with Kalashnikovs roaming the streets, this is as far from a democracy as you can get. Israel is doing the world and the Arab world a favour, both Egypt and Jordan are very for this engagement with Hamas. We need all to unite in this fight against Islam extremist, the same kind of extremists that attacked NY on 9/11, is your memory so short?

Master Race=Chosen People...I really thought I was the only one on the planet who saw that. Thank you Diane.

Israel will push forward with its offensive in the Gaza Strip until it "completely destroys" Hamas, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Gabriela Shalev, said Monday, saying that the operation will continue as long as necessary to reach that goal.

Michael, let's try again.  Hamas = Taliban = Christofascists = Israeli illegal settlers/settlements.  They all think they're God's warriors (see also Christianne Amanpour's documentary by that name; see also the documentary film "Occupation 101").

Nothing makes a monkey of Abraham's God than his believers in the Middle East, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim alike.

And you ARE all alike.

Michael, let's try again.  Hamas = Taliban = Christofascists = Israeli illegal settlers/settlements.  They all think they're God's warriors (see also Christianne Amanpour's documentary by that name; see also the documentary film "Occupation 101").

Nothing makes a monkey of Abraham's God than his believers in the Middle East, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim alike.

And you ARE all alike.

How the dickens did that get double-posted?????????

Michael Ross, my friend, I hear what you are saying but you need to hear what others are saying too...the objective "Completely destroys" is a myth and I really mean it. It does not work and it will not work and it has not worked for the last sixty years or so.  I believe when you say "completely destroyed", you are refering to "buildings, bridges, roads, schools, universities, regular armies etc. etc"...the time when "bombs" could destroy spirits of ordinary people is pretty much over. 

Thank you, Rick. The whole nonsense about Master Races and Chosen People are rooted in Angle-Saxony (Germany), as is Yiddish (Bavarian German).  Such is the nature of the concept of royalty, too ("blue-bloods", as if their blood isn't red like in the rest of us).

Consider that the House of Windsor did a name change to smokescreen their own German origin.  They changed it to Windsor from Saxe-Coburn, a German house.  It's the Angles who have traditionally claimed to be an angelic race,after all, as their name suggests.

And it's all religio-racist tommyrot.  This business of an "Aryan Nation" embraces a false notion of "IndoEuropean" to the extent that the Hindu-fomented caste system is embraced, and, woudln't you know it--they fancy themselves to bhe the Brahmins and everybody else is inconsequential.

The Middle East is just a patch of desert. The only thing that makes it a threat to the planet is the religions of the misbegotten people fighting over it.

Hey, guys, you are way of track. This is not about religion, its about eliminating terror as a tactic in resolving conflicts.

Israel has, and always has been willing to sit down with any group that legitimately represent the Palestinian people and to talk about a two state solution. It is Hamas the terrorists that resist that idea and insist on trying to eliminate Israel, a pipe dream, we all agree, a dream they are not willing to give up, even today as stated by their leader, cowardly sitting in Iraq. So what is the solution besides elimination of Hamas and talking to the PA, I am open to suggestions, anyone have a better idea, anyone?

I mean cowardly sitting in Syria.

NUMBERS. Numbers are great since you can manipulate them however you want (unlike historical facts as described above!). Solutions based on historical numbers:  Hamas has killed over 400 people out of 7 million population of Israel.  In September11 less than 3000 people were killed of a population of 280 million.  Looking at the percent of the population that was hit it is much smaller proportionally. And yes, I know Hamas achieves its goals slower, give them time they are improving.  As for a tolerable reaction the US killed over 20,000 in Afghanistan. So how many does Israel have to kill to become a super power?  Here is another set of numbers from WWII – Germany 7 million killed, Japan 2.7 million, US only 418,000.  Do you suggest not enough Americans were killed? Or maybe use of excessive force (some call it unconventional force) used by the US caused them to finish the war faster and minimize the number of casualties? According to this what would be the quickest solution to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

The present-day power of Hamas was born from the despair of the Palestinians living under Israeli tyranny. Without opression there is no uprising. Terrorists find support when they find people who have lost hope and promise them a new life.

1.) Let´s see how human rights are doing in each country - women, LGBT, etc have more justice under the law in israel than in palestinia.
2.) Hamas´ultimate goal is the creation of an minority-oppressive, fundamentalist Islamic state. Much like pre-2001 Afghanistan.
3.)Israel is a secular, free and democratic state, much like the United States. both countries are not bonded just "by interests"
4.) Israel AVOIDS killing civilians... as a matter of fact, most dead people in the last 3 days have been Hamas leaders/recruits. Hamas' rockets TRY to kill them. And this is personal experience.
5.) It was the Arab States who attacked Israel and ignored the UN partition plan. Whose fault is it?

The land is a major symbol of the problem, like on this map:
http://blixx.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/landloss.jpg

It's because Israel has treated Palestinians so harshly over  decades, taken land, stolen land, bulldozed homes and villages, scared people off, even killed them, as we see today. Hamas has been elected to govern by a people hoping that someone can stand up to the world's 5th military power, armed for free by America.

But the hardliners in Israel are only making enemies for decades to come just as American neocons are in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Peace comes through dialogue, not through plotting the next attack.

Just like dialogue with Osama bin Laden could work?

Reichen Muller, Hamas draws its power from Iran, that supplies it with money and weapons, so that it can keep the war going so that Iran's Mullah's can have Israel to blame for their tyranny.

The first Earthpledge proposal wasn't as clear as it needed to be which caused some confusion. Please take a closer look at this hopeful vision and alternative to the endless spiral of violence escalating in the Middle East and cast your vote today. Thank you. 
http://www.change.org/ideas/view/israel_as_cornerstone_for_a_future_united_states_of_earth
Also, please check out my friend Josep's proposal for human unity:
http://www.change.org/ideas/view/human_union

Deane,

I think you hit the neail on the head, by providing the link to the illustrating map.  Some people who are so blind by hate and narrowmindeness can see things better when shown in graphics.

I also hope that the first person who posted a comment here actually drown on its own vomit since it seems it is the only thing that can come out of such narrowed views.

I have no interest to either Israelis or Palestinians but I can see beyond the smoke of the mainstream media. All you really have to do these days with the internet is search for balanced and common sense information available for anybody to see.  I also invite to people to just "fly" to the land in conflict via Google earth  take a closer look and see it yourself how the Goal of Israel is being achieved as illegal occupation takes shape over the settlements visible to the naked eye in Palestinian territories.  I wander what we will do if we were siege by a hypothetically Stronger Native American Nation that wanted it's land back; kept us isolated from the world with no access to food, water, medical services and freedom of movement.

charles you really got the problemand The israelis will not learn this except by experience like when this happenend in lebanon

Mohammed, in Lebanon the missiles stopped after the attack.  They will here also.  The question is how much you have to destroy in order for the terrorists to stop shooting.

Zobra They didn't start lebanon war because missiles but because the 2 soldiers captured and they didn't get them and to eliminate Hzbollah and they didn't do that either

Wow, I am amazed at all the discussion on recent events, when the reality of the matter is that this issue began back in 1948 and 1949 when the Israeli government systematically and deliberately ethnically cleansed most of Palestine and set up an exclusive nation.  That is no different than say, African-Americans driving out 100% of white people from their homes in American cities and towns-simply driving them out with no consideration whatsoever for where they would live, and setting up an exclusive African-American nation.  It sounds so ridiculous that it is hardly imaginable, yet this is what happened in Palestine. 

All of this is well-documented in Israeli historical records as offered up by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe. 

I stood in solidarity with Palestinians yesterday on the streets of San Diego.  They are concerned about Gaza, but all the signs were really about being driven from their homes and land 60 years ago.  And the amazing thing is that the non-militant groups that I know about are simply asking for representation in a democratic state.  But Israelis insist on absolute domination.

Israelis drove a couple million innocent folks from their homes, murdering, raping, and pillaging along the way, then wonder why they have a mess on their hands 60 years later. 

Peace and Justice go hand in hand, just like the jingle says.....

In response to Michael, it is really just pretty idiotic to say that when my side bombs and kills, its simply some kind of self-defense, and when the other side does it, its terrorism.  Michael, when you are driven out of your home and find a way to survive in a camp somewhere, I hope you won't resort to terrorism.  But then, in that case, it wouldn't be terrorism, would it?   It would be justified.....

Steve S from San DIego, you are very misinformed, this space does not allow room to go over evey detail, I recommend reading "The Case For Israel" by Dershovitz to get a more balanced view.

Regarding terrorism, Steve it is all in the intent, that is the diferrentiator, accidents do happen in war, Israel as a policy tries to avoid civilians, on the other hand Hamas target purposely civilians, thier lies the difference, that is the definition of terror, and I hope you do not support terror, or deny the fightagainst terror.

 Mr Ross Have you ever experienced War? when I read your words It sounds like they come from Donald Rumsfeld. These wars that have been conducted by Israel for years have only lead to more Wars, and some young Israeli who is poor and can be sacrificed will be drafted. That person will must pay the Price. Just as in America, Jews protect the ruling class.

Lee, for your information I have lived through three wars and participated in two, its hell. In Israel their is a draft, every male and female at the age of 18 is drafted, so please don't invent stuff.

This is Israel protecting itself from terror, plain and simple, you would do the same in Israel's place.

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_ILdI9N_AY

Hello to everyone here.I am a 30+ year old Jewish mother of 2 from Israel.I must confess that I do not have the most articulate debating skills, nor do I feel the need to contradict or endorse anyone's opinion here. I can very easily relate to both sides of the story here, and I would only like to tell how I feel about all of this:

I live in Ashquelon, a city in Israel which is being attacked now by missiles from Gaza.

I went to the army because it was compulsory, but I also studied at the University of Haifa with Israeli Arab students, have studied a paramedical profession and have worked with other Arab professionals and treated Arab children as patients.

I don't hate Arabs or Palestinians - and quite frankly, I don't care what they call themselves. They are people - and every person on the face of the earth is entitled to peace, love and security.

I wish they didn't hate me either. As a woman and as a mother I wish there was nothing but love and respect on the face of the earth.

Unfortunately, I can understand how the Palestinian hatred began.
 
The problem is - I don't see how anyone can end it.

In Israel, we don't teach our children in the kindergarten to hate Arabs or Palestinians. The children don't go around wearing military uniform or fake bomb belts....How can you teach that to a 4 year old child?? Unfortunately that seems to be a very natural thing in the occupied territories. Hating and viewing Jews and Israelis like they were the devil.

The majority of people in Israel ache for peace with the Palestinians. Peace is the second word in every prayer and song in the Jewish culture.
I have heard the Islam is supposed to be the religion of love as well. How come it is always associated with violence and hatred then?

Israelis today just don't know what to do anymore to reach peace with the Palestinians. It seems like no matter how hard we reach out for peace - all the Palestians want to do is dump us in the sea.

In 2005 Israel willingly evacuated 9,000 Jews from their homes in the Gaza strip for the chance of peace. What did the Palestians do with that land? The burnt down all the houses and greenhouses and turned the place into a missile launching space.

Since then Israel has returned hundreds of palestinian prisoners who have murdered Jews back to the occupied territories....in return we have received no sign of willingness for peace, just more violence and hatred...

I am not saying that Israel has or has not knowingly or unknowingly made wrong choices with regarding the Palestinian population - the question is: How do we get out of this mess?!!

Thank you M Green for this very authentic posting, we don't have the answers, but just maybe by telling the truth about what is happening we can help a bit.

The sad truth is that we are all being manipulated by larger powers, that have an interest in continuing this war, IRAN and SYRIA, who supply both weapons, explosives, money and training to Hamas and Hizbellah, and until we stop thess sources, the terror will continue.

Hi Michael,
You are beginning to sound more and more like Ann Colter and Bill O'Reily. A little bit of reading and fact finding will do you lots of good. You have dozens of posts repeating the same thing over and over.

Barb, that's because you just don't get it the first time. And please show me "dozens" of identical posts, another invention of your fertile mind. Your relation to the truth is tenuous at best, and none existent most of the time.

Hello, M Green. You and a lot of Israelis who genuinely desire peace but feel like you don't know what else to do should view an excellent documentary about the message that you're not getting.  It's called "Occupation 101". It's difficult for the occupying side to understand what it's like living in occupation. Try it sometime.

Understand, please, that I'm not defending Hamas' rockets; I'm simply stating why it is that a group of surrounded people whose livelihoods and life basics have been constricted while a wall pretending to be a security measure is actually a land grab committed by people who wish to destroy a 7th century mosque built under a treaty they refuse to recognize.

There is the encroachment by illegal settlements and the bulldozing of the homes that legitimately belong there to make room for illegal settlers.  The problem is the whole picture.  If somebody took a bulldozer to your house and claimed your land as theirs, you would...what....turn handsprings and say "you can bulldoze my house and take my land!  Enjoy!"?

Walk a mile in their shoes, live the life of occupation, and you will understand.

P.S. to M Green:
"How do you make peace with this?"  The same way Israel did when it was arming Hamas to destablize the Palestinian Authority, that's how.  Yep, Israel was a supporter of Hamas.  Why don't you pose youre question to the Knesset?

Diane, you should look a little deeper back in history and you may find that their have been Jewish people living continuously in the land of Israel for over 5,000 years, so who is occupying the West Bank?

Jews were their before Palestinians. I say it is now occupied by Arabs. This is all a question of perspective. In the end if the current occupants of the West Bank want to live in peace with the rest of Israel they are going to have to denounce terror and disarm.

Israel owes them nothing absolutely nothing, they owe everything to Israel. Not one single Arab country has agreed to Palestinians settling in their territory. Israel has.

Israeli Arabs are the only Arabs living in a democracy in the ME. The only Arabs represented in a Parliament.

"Prior to 1947, the Zionist agenda concentrated on building a political, ideological, cultural and economic enclave within historic Palestine. Now, during these crucial months leading to the UN Resolution 181, it was decided that the time has come to translate these ideologies into realities on the ground.  The Zionist leadership openly declared that it intended to take over the land of Palestine and to expel its indigenous population. Their plan was called Plan Dalet.
On 10 March 1948, two months before the so-called Declaration of Independence, the Zionist leadership gathered in Tel Aviv and agreed on Plan Dalet calling for a military campaign against the Palestinians. Over 13 military underground operations were carried out (according to The History of the Palmach archives released in full in 1972) before the Arab forces entered the areas allotted by the UN to the Palestinians in their Partition Plan. Both Menachem Begin and David Ben-Gurion wrote extensively about their underground military campaigns to cleanse Palestinian villages of their indigenous inhabitants.All this was taking place BEFORE Israel existed! The claim that Arab forces invaded Israel is hog-wash. When the Zionist leaders established Israel on 15 May 1948, they purposefully avoided declaring its boundaries in order to open the doors for future expansion, as has been happening since then."

read - research: Ilan Pappe author of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

By Simha Flapan 'The Birth of Israel the Myths & Reality'

two Israeli scholars and critics of Israeli terrorism

Yoo-hoo! Yo, change.org organizers! Over here, in the "Peace in the Middle East" cause section!

We do not have a proper moderator. We do not have an honest broker for this discussion. Please find someone else who is more balanced. This is not right. You do not achieve "peace in the Middle East" by propagandizing and inciting more hatred of Israel.

It's reall a problem -- we have someone moderating this section who has decidedly taken a side in the conflict, is pro-Palestinian and even aggressively so, and who sees his job not as trying to get at the facts or find peaceful solutions, but rather in smugly lecturing people on the other side of the conflict, chastising people who simply aren't persuaded by his "facts," or who feel both sides in the conflict should be apportioned blame fairly.

In not a single one of his "10 myths" can Charles address the glaring fact we can all see: that Hamas fired missiles into Israel. There's no condemnation of this fact, and no recognition of this and many other provocations.

"....Israel has severely restricted the possible development of an independent Palestine by imposing a matrix of control on the Palestinians in the West Bank, in Gaza, and in East Jerusalem. Since 1967 it has put into place a matrix, similar to that of the "Go" board (Vietnam strategy) that has virtually paralyzed the Palestinian population. The matrix is composed of several overlapping layers. First is the actual physical control of key links and nodes that create the matrix of control: settlements and their extended "master plans"; a massive system of highways and by-pass roads (including wide "sanitary" margins); army bases and industrial parks at key locations; closed military areas; "nature preserves"; control of aquifers and other natural resources; internal checkpoints and control of all border crossings; areas "A," "B," "C," "D," "H-1," "H-2"; Israeli-controlled holy places in key locations; and much more. These define the matrix of constricted Palestinian enclaves and effectively divide them from one another. They also give Israel control of key "nodes."
"The second layer of the matrix is bureaucratic and "legal:" all the planning, permits, and policies that entangle the Palestinian population in a tight web of restrictions. These include political zoning of land as "agricultural" in order to freeze the natural development of towns and villages; a politically motivated system of building permits, enforced by house demolitions, designed to confine the population to its constricted enclaves; land expropriation for (solely Israeli) "public purposes"; restrictions of planting and the wholesale destruction of Palestinian crops; licensing and inspection of Palestinian businesses; closure; restrictions on movement and travel; and more. Although Israel is careful to present its policies as "legal," in fact they are not. The failure to guarantee Palestinians the basic human rights provided by the Geneva Convention and other international covenants--which Israel has signed--is patently illegal. The extensive use of the Israeli court system, which invariably rules against Palestinians, as a means of controlling the local population, makes a mockery of the link between law and justice. All these confine Palestinians to isolated cantons, control their movement, and maintain Israeli hegemony."

Read-research: ' The Other Israel' edited by Roane Carey and Jonathan Shainin

Diane,

I will see the movie and will try to judge all sides OBJECTIVELY.

Furthermore, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that poverty and living in the sewage in disgracing conditions will lead a child to hatred and violence. That is a terrible condition for any human being to live in.
But guess what??

Do you have any idea how much money Israel, as well as the European Union and other world organizations have transferred
http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/occupied_palestinian_territory/ec_assistance/index_en.htm 
the Palestinian Authority over the past decade in order for them to improve their civil infrastructures - build hospitals, schools, etc to make the citizens' lives more durable and promote a sustainable society?

Guess where lot of that money ended up eventually?
In the pockets of corrupt leaders, to military extremists...and basically down the drain!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3243071.stm
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3350298,00.html
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/26078.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/815543.html

All,

With reference to this site being one-sided, I have seen criticism of Hamas.  No one supports what Hamas is doing.  If there is support for palestinians, it is for the ordinary palestinian just trying to survive. 

But I have seen no one address the simple facts presented by myself and by James.  These are facts, not propaganda.  As James points out, much of what we now know about what happened in 1947 and 1948 comes from Israeli records.  Michael's approach is to call it nonsense, rather than address specific facts one by one.  "Don't confuse me with the facts, please.  I've aready made up my mind".

If arguments seem biased towards the Palestinian cause, it is simply because they WERE ethnically cleansed by the Israelis.  They were murdered, raped, imprisoned, tortured, while elderly and children were forced to become homeless wanderers.  There was no concern whatsoever in this campaign for anything except the civilian population.  They relentlessly attacked entire civilian populations.  Nothing in this discussion is really germane until we go back to 1948.  Do you expect Palestinians to just "get over it"? 

What Israel did and continues to do is wrong.  What Hamas is doing is wrong.  Has there been corruption in the attempts at Palestinian government?  Yes.  But the only real solution traces this issue back to its source and addresses it.  I don't see how we can expect Palestinians to accept anything less.

This site is biased as hell. Biased against violence and intolerance. For that reason we get extreme pro-Palestinian voices denouncing the posts for being pro-Zionist, as well as supporters of Israeli violence denouncing it for being pro-Hamas.

In truth, we are biased against the use of violence as a method of resolving conflict. It is not a useful method in the long run, as every victory produces losers who are just waiting until the next time when they can have another round. Nonviolent victories, on the other hand, produce outcomes that both sides can see as positive.

Catherine, if something is a glaring fact and not a myth it wouldn't be included in this post.... If I thought anyone was confused about Hamas engaging in terrorism I might have included it.

That being said, I am actually interested in articulate defenses of Hamas strategy. Has anyone seen a reasoned defense of lobbing rockets at Israeli civilians are part and parcel of a strategy for advancing the Palestinian agenda? I'm sure there are such things, but maybe it's all in Arabic at this point.

I'm sure I'd disagree with that strategy, but it would be interesting to address it.

Diane: Israel never armed Hamas. The accusation that Israel tacitly helped that movement grow is correct though.

What happened, is that during the 70's the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine rejected active participation in the secular nationalist PLO. They focused inward, preaching that returning to God would  be the way to liberate Palestine. Instead of conducting armed struggle or organizing resistance, they built a network of charitable institutions that provided social services.

Much of this was funded by donors around the Arab world, such as Saudis. Israel has the ability to restrict the flow of cash, and the ability to impede the growth of the MB, as it did in the case of other Palestinian political parties. (The Palestinian Communists, for example, never engaged in armed struggle but suffered from severe Israeli represssion.)

The conflict between the MB and the secular nationalists intensified during the 80s, and Israel took that position that the conflict itself was a good thing. So they allowed street fighting, tacitly encouraged Islamist institution building, and gave leading MB figures the freedom to travel and operate in public. Only well after the outreak of the first Intifada did Israel begin to see Hamas as a serious security threat, and take action accordingly.

This version of events is accepted inside Israel. Occupiers have always used 'divide and rule' tactics against the occupied.

BTW, Anwar Sadat used the same strategy when consolidating his regime in the face of left wing and Nasserist opposition in the 70s. And look where that got him!

Thank you, Charles Lenchner.

Thank you for your courage - and your valued pespectives.

Now, will my comment bring on the wrath of Michael Ross - or am I allowed to thank Charles Lenchner without setting myself up to be a hopefully elusive target.

May a calm sharing of divergent points of view exist as this important dialogue continues. 

May all antagonistic, emotionally aroused individuals seek to expand their knowledge of the issue beyond their dogma-ridden bias.  

If not, they might just offer up themselves and their offspring as cannonfodder - just to be assured they have a total experience in this whole horrific dilemma. 

The problem with Mike Ross is his vested interest in the fiction of revisionist history. Mike, you have no standing to preach about digging into history when your version of history is at odds with history of record. History of record shows that there was no Jewish rule over Jewish lands as such since Alexander the Great, that any Jewish people there were residents as citizens of other regimes including the Mithraic Kingdoms, and during the Mithraic era, was Syria's land.

By your reasoning, Chinatown in California and Chinatown in New York are both Chinese lands.  Under the Roman Empire, Jews were Romans.  Under the Ottoman Empire, Jews were Ottomans...those lands were Syrian lands, Roman lands, and Ottoman, respectively.  Just because you live someplace doesn't mean that it's automatically the land of your family's place of origin.

This dialogue with all its perspectives is very very interesting.

I, for one, gravitate towards perspectives shared on situations in which the commentor has actual first-hand knowledge.
So, I'm ready to learn for Charles Lenchner. 

When one ventures into realms of hearsay and media pronouncements and comes away convinced he or she has just learned the real scoop, the gospel truth so-to-say, about any such situation as complex as this - then that person may be just plain over eager to convince him or herself of absolutes. 

Belief that one grasps the absolute truth often wins over the belief that the entire "truth" cannot be obtained without some interplay of illusion, desires and driving needs for accord - and for crutches. 

Yes, crutches.  For instance, one can subconsciously say, "I own this strong idea and it gives me some permanence.  A life beyond this realm of birth and death.  A fortress while I'm drawing breaths to protect my fragile willy-nilly human self from perils of life on earth."  All kinds of powerful authoritarian figures hand out convincing crutches.  Some don't even charge tithes. 
Historical facts may be absolutes.  Conjectures as to motivations of any gov't. power's actions surrounding said historical facts are only ordinary perspectives.  

So when I read that NPR is consider by some as a infallible, or for certain reliable, source I wince.  Cannot help but recall the time years past when NPR ran the most inflammatory report of which I'd ever instantly grasped the fear-stoking intent. Reeking of vicarious-thrills-emotions of the ambulance chaser genre.  I quickly turned that medium of persuasion off.  

The over-emoting female commentator portrayed Palestinians as raging beasts destroying fragile helpless Israelis.  I thought, "What in the heck is going on?"  Bloody sensationalism.  Stirring up hatred.  Listener-sponsored Public Radio?  (Well, that was even a bit before some ultra-conservative corporate reps joined the board of NPR.)
So unwary listeners may have just taken it all to heart as the medium entranced them into believing they were right there - seeing it all for real.  (Same kind of stuff happens with visual media.  For decades now, most tv viewers have no longer discerned enough to say. "I saw images or portrayals of an event."  They say, "I saw it happen."

That NPR broadcast was similar in intent to a CNN one I glimpsed in the waning hours prior to US of A's Gulf War invasion.  That medium of persuasion had footage of a male anchor donning a gas mask in the studio.  On stage he postured dramatically turning as he strived to stir up fear among Jewish populations - everywhere.  Indeed.  (But, has CNN ever covered the extent and damages caused by US armed forces use of its stockpile of depleted uraninum - as it is was dispensed so permanently into the sands of Kuwait and Iraq?)

I do not pretend to know answers to any controversy I haven't witnessed first hand.  Revisionist history and conspiracy theories relayed in any medium are not my cup of tea.

So, for me, this Ten Myths about Israel and the Palestinians is written by an alert, questioning and peace-promoting young man who lived a great deal of his life IN Israel.  He wasn't just running around playing hacky-sack, ultimate frisbee and chasing girls while he was there.  For me, his experiences put him far closer to sources of this dilemma that are others who formulate theories from distant perspectives and other's material.

It is important that those all formulate their opinions from a distance carry on with their dialogues.  For then, Charles, rises to the occasion with grace and dignity.  It's a very easy read to see his balance, his fairness.  I'm all for continuation of this dialogue.

As one old-d, getting older every moment here, person  - the most important first-hand knowledge I have of Israel per se began when an OSS/CIA operative told me circa 1950 that the State of Israel was created as a US of A military outpost in the midst of oil rich Arab lands.  "Oil rich" was emphasized.  I was dismayed.  My innocence, somewhat shattered.  I'd assumed it was created by western powers solely to give sanctuary to survivors of Nazi genocide and their children to come.  That was what my very well paid teachers had said.  This person who had the need to know wasn't lying to me.  I was told to absolutely keep it mum.  Later when I was with The Agency (as it was then called) I learned anew of ops, priorities and justification for ongoing financial support of Israel.  (We're talking 1957 and on.)

It was later that Israel went completely rogue.  Or did it?

So that's just a little peephole into history.  Sorry I didn't copy any of the classified paperwork.  Computers in that decade were about thirty to forty feet long by at least twelve feet wide.  Long before microchips.  But, if fifty years back I had walked out a door of that pitiful WWII temp building, one of those almost hidden in the tree shadows near the Lincoln Memorial, with a hard copy, I surely wouldn't be here to share any of it. 

I was just very young, doing my Cold War patriotic duty and earning a paycheck. 

Nonetheless, when one is actually in the belly of a beast and keeps his or her center, one learns. 

And, those lessons are ongoing and limitless. Those lessons effectively propel one to critically analyse public statements made by any governmental representative in virtually any arena.  Esp. the UN.  Those lessons encourage one to almost laugh when doublespeak becomes the accepted rhetoric of officialdom.

Oh, do I wish that that CIA wasn't, as Agee put it, "the secret police working for corporate America".  Or, something to that effect.  His words got him in a lot of trouble. 

Oh, do I wish that there was one process by which people were governed or self-governed that actually promoted peace and well-being for all.

It is for Charles and his generation of activists - those with conscience and concern for humankind - to see the realization of peace and accord surplant the insane, frightfully insecure, materialistic greed of others who have gone before them.

May Peace Prevail.
Namaste.

Charles, you keep erasing my comments, now its "no quotes" policy, yesterday it was "nothing personal policy" except towards my comments, very balanced indeed.

For all of you now without quoting, Benny Morris a well established historian states that the quoted above Pappe has totally fabricated history in his view. You are welcome to Google both Pappe and Morris.

I love peace as much and probably more than you, I have more at stake than you, with three grandchildren living in Israel, I just happen to be more realistic, pragmatic and accurate about the history of the region, having learned it there.

Again without being repetitive, can any one come up with a better solution to daily rockets coming down on civilians, and their is no justification for terror, no matter you think the Palestinians have suffered, all their own doing, but you heard that before. You live with terrorists, you can expect to get hurt.

The moderator of this discussion should have a neutral opinion, not a biased one.

For the record, yes, I am erasing Michael a lot. Don't comment so much, you are drowning out other voices. It's not your job to respond to everyone as if it's a personal conversation.

Michael, this isn't an objective news site. It's a place to cultivate a progressive conversation about how supporters of peace can promote Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation, mostly from a U.S. perspective.

We both agree with the goal of promoting Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation, we just disagree on the method of reaching that goal. I subscribe to a pragmatic approach and you to a more idealistic approach.

I promise not to dominate the site, but don't think you should operate as a censor, that makes little sense, if your goal is to promote a conversation.

I assure you Micahel, non violent philosophy and action is alive and well. It will never disappear as long as human beings continue because it is the expression of two sides of the same coin of our human nature. Just as in the day of Gandhi, there were weapons and powers threatening reprisal and all out war through physical violence. The weapons have indeed become more powerful since then, but the need for an alternative to the ever recurring cycle of retaliation has never been greater. 
Idealism can swing both ways. You could argue Hitler was an idealist for thinking he could take over the world through force just as Gandhi was an idealist for seeking to bring permanent peace between Hindus and Muslims.  

Eli, I wish the world was ideal, were people behave in a predictable way, then Pacifism would work. Unfortunately we live in a messy world full of all kinds of crazy fanatics, with a culture of death. These people interpret a pacifist as a weak person and will only increase their violence, its the law of the jungle, that's reality.

The only proven way to stop terrorists is to eliminate them, either as an organization and if that does not work, one by one, like Israel did after the Munich Olympic massacre, that's the kind of people we are dealing with.

The natural world which we have evolved from and are an integral part of is full of violence, animal eat animal is the norm, up and down the scale.

I've reread the moderator's statements.  This site is great.  It's a premise.  Are we Americans not allowed premises?  

It's counterproductive to include rantings by any ideologically restricted person.  This site is a format in which to find solutions.

My perspective is that "Ten Myths" effectively creates a format for dialogues on the resolution of a grave conflict while it:

 1. Disapproves of all "might is right" methodology

 2. States the ineffectiveness and counterproductivity of the ideologically motivated national interests of Israel 
  
 3. Disavows all violence as an effective means towards a truce -  which would be fair and lasting and not bestow rewards for aggressively occupied lands - territorial gains to Israel

Not for conversation's sake do I ask each reader to ponder the comment about an idealist in the white house with tragic results - when was there an idealist in the white house?  Took a while to decipher that notion.  It is commonplace in Hollywood scripts, is it not?  Is there some real life plot in which an practising idealist snuck in and out of the oval office without informing Americans he was there?  Smile.

I don't bother to function under any guise of pragmatism.  I'm not a receptive recipient of any militarist or nationalist indoctrination. Or have I been conscripted off to wage any bloody battles against some trumped-up convenient enemy. Never advocated 'my country right or wrong'.  Do not associate with power junkies whose lifelong habits keep them wound up so tight that they're incapable of sharing their views without always either convincing themselves their last jab went straight to the throat - or that they've shown superior research powers by stringing together distant others' bias. 

However, sincere thanks to M. Ross for adding a few decades to my lifespan.  How he pulled that off occured solely when he attempted to denigrate pacifism.  Pacifism definitely includes peace advocacy, peaceful negotiations, peace-seeking mediations, pacifists, and all who strive for accord.  Includes all who do not advocate violence. Those who seek the path of tolerance and acceptance for others who may not be in their inclusive religious/ideological sect.   

I am gladly alienated from all self-antiquated age peers of power-wielding Machiavellian intent. Warriors, I believe they call themselves.  I'm younger at heart and would not label them - for they sadly wear their insecurities on their sleeves. 

It is for Charles and his generation of activists - those with conscience and concern for humankind - to see the realization of peace and accord surplant the insane, frightfully insecure, materialistic greed of others who have gone before them.

May Peace Prevail.
Namaste.

Thank you, Mr. Lechner, for having the courage to stand up to Israel.  So few do.  I went to the West Bank years ago as part of a Christian student group, and I was as admiring of Israel as anyone.  Then I experienced a small bit of life as Palestinians must do every day, and was shocked to the point of heartbreak.  Palestinians are seen as less than human, and as such certainly not deserving of human rights.  Israel does not want true peace, they simply want all the Palestinians to disappear.  Go away.  Die if they must, just be gone.  Until Americans wake up to this and start demanding that our government stop subsidizing Israel's occupation, there is little hope for change.  What hypocrites we are, hand in hand with the racist Israelis. 

I could respond to all of your accusations, but I am sure someone else will. I just want to say this: Standing AGAINST Israel does not require courage, most people condemn Israel´s actions, even in the US. I would say the other way around would require more courage. 
PS: By the way (just to de-idealize a little bit) , you know how many Palestinian refugees live in Israel because of their sexual orientation? One of the few gay Palestinians who WAS returned from Israeli asylum to the West Bank was thrown to a hole, and he starved to death. Too much fundamentalism or just plain intolerance? You decide(http://www.indegayforum.org/news/show/26762.html)

Thank you Eli Williamson for the Earthpledge.

Charles, Hold fast to the center.  You've been branded an idealist.

Name calling - he is.  Follower blindly agrees without using whatever wits he possesses to show he understands the contents of your premise and your explanations.   

Six and seven decades back, idealists, pacifists, secular humanists, skeptics, mediators, free-thinkers, concerned and discerning persons who questioned violent military invasion and occupation worked to destroy the Fascisti and Nazis.  By doing so, they became targets of a very specific culture of death.  

With his dedication to the use of force, of violence, I think one fellow in this dialogue shows himself to be increasingly incorrigible.  His whole agenda as he slips from thinly-veiled guise to ill-fitting guise, is counterproductive to the goal of this site. 

His "eliminate them" rap reminds one my age of Adoph Hitler. 

I'm about to accuse him of not only reveling while he drowns in his very own culture of death - but also of wishing to take humankind down with him.

My perceptions are allowed.  I'm not arguing about who's right or who's wrong in this wretched horrific Mid East conflict.   I won't offer up a website in an attempt to convince anyone of anything.  I perceive random use of websites as cast-in-stone factual backup to have as much credence as the power of the printed word did back when peasants were finally permitted to lay their eyes on books. 
The power inate in any medium seduces the indiscriminate into believing its message. 

Guys, just because you have a bias and know how to surf and read, view and listen to someone support your bias does not equal: Absolute truth resides here and here alone and there are no other two ways about it allowed.

All sorts of extremist 'true believers' with their raging clinging demons got their beliefs from revised, reprogrammed editions of their original messiahs' messages of 'god is love'.  All extremists suffer from the delusion of devils and demons.  Some go beyond conjuring devil images in print, images and chants and seek out flesh and blood 'others' who are presented to them as demons.

No group of violence-condoning extremists has been condoned or promoted by this site.

This site is about being open to expansion beyond one's acquired ideological/religious bias - to get to where one sees a futility of violence whoever the culprit be.

Namaste. 

Has anyone noticed how the war proponents fail to note that the Palestine-Israel conflict was one of the reasons *cited* by al Qaeda leadership for their various attacks on us including 9/11.  In other words, the longer this goes on, the less safe the world is, including the U.S.  for that reason, this particular conflict should be of very personal interest to everyone in the U.S. to solve and to solve quickly. That Bush has shown very little interesting in going this tells me he's not really interested in solving the problem IN fact, those are probably our bombs in Israel's hands making the situation much worse.

It's also a myth that Israel is our ally. They don't care about our safety or they wouldn't be doing this military invasion of Gaza. Every Palestinian they kill makes us more in danger of terrorism.  Them too!   I can't think of a single thing they have ever done for us except take our money off our hands. I would love to hear how they deserve the title "Our special friend" that we have this mysterious bond with.

Pacifism could work but only if everyone agreed with that.
Watch "The Day the Earth Stood Still" -- the original.

"....you will forgive me if I speak bluntly. The universe grows smaller every day, and the threat of aggression by any group, anywhere, can no longer be tolerated."

We need a Klaatu.

Charles, by shutting off opposing opinions, you will end up having a conversation with yourself, just like Bush, whom we both despise, you are surrounding yourself with similar minded people.

What happened to the Obama system of surrounding yourself with a diversion of opinions, this blog is the exact opposite of the Obama spirit. You should reconsider, what you are doing? Dissent is the air of a democracy. What are you afraid of?

"Later when I was with The Agency (as it was then called) I learned anew of ops, priorities and justification for ongoing financial support of Israel."

I have never understood why we send them so much money, and why they seem to "test" our most deadly weapons  at the slightest provocation.  I read yesterday that we sent them over $20 billion last year.  Could that be true? And what is that for? And why do they seem to use our most horrific weapons (cluster bombs, etc. ) when it's not remotely needed?  Now I read that Israel is using the DNA-changing DIME bombs in Gaza.  Why such horrible weapons?  Doctors telling of bodies cut in half, etc. See this video:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21612.htm

Shelly, the DIME weapon was designed spefically to reduce collateral damage, so if is used (and their is no proof of that) it shows the length and exspense Israel is willing to go in order to reduce collateral damage in its fight against terror. So this is a positive development designed to save lives, if true.

That's like saying cluster bombs are good for people because some of them miss.  Here is a description of the DIME bomb (reportedly used according to the Doctor in the video in the link I posted).
This is from globalresearch. 
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=SHA20061024&articleId=3595
From what I have read DIME bombs are horrific when they hit people. They are designed for densely populated areas.  They are also radioactive and can cause cancer.
"US made Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME). According to the military magazine Defence Tech, DIME is a carbon-encased missile that shatters on impact into minuscule splinters, at the same time setting off an explosive that shoots blades of energy-charged, heavy metal tungsten alloy (HMTA) powder, such as cobalt and nickel or iron, with a carbon fibre casing. It turns to dust on impact, as it loses inertia very quickly due to air resistance, burning and destroying through a very precise angulation everything within a four-meter range, as opposed to the shrapnel which results from the fragmentation of a metal casing."If I were in Gaza right now, this does not sound like good news to me.  It sounds like a giant bullet, meant to kill but destroy less property surrounding the target.  This is why the doctor says some of the wounded are cut in half.  And it is certainly not evidence of Israel wishing to cut down on collateral damage, when Israel is bombing entire buildings full of civilians, such as mosques and schools, as it has been doing.

The Jewish ethical tradition means embracing Palestinians, too. By Sara Roy   Cambridge, Mass.

I hear the voices of my friends in Gaza as clearly as if we were still on the phone; their agony echoes inside me. They weep and moan over the death of their children, some, little girls like mine, taken, their bodies burned and destroyed so senselessly. One Palestinian friend asked me, "Why did Israel attack when the children were leaving school and the women were in the markets?" There are reports that some parents cannot find their dead children and are desperately roaming overflowing hospitals. As Jews celebrated the last night of Hanukkah, the Jewish festival of lights commemorating our resurgence as a people, I asked myself: How am I to celebrate my Jewishness while Palestinians are being killed? The religious scholar Marc Ellis challenges us further by asking whether the Jewish covenant with God is present or absent in the face of Jewish oppression of Palestinians? Is the Jewish ethical tradition still available to us? Is the promise of holiness – so central to our existence – now beyond our ability to reclaim? The lucky ones in Gaza are locked in their homes living lives that have long been suspended – hungry, thirsty, and without light but their children are alive. Since Nov. 4, when Israel effectively broke the truce with Hamas by attacking Gaza on a scale then unprecedented – a fact now buried with Gaza's dead – the violence has escalated as Hamas responded by sending hundreds of rockets into Israel to kill Israeli civilians. It is reported that Israel's strategy is to hit Hamas military targets, but explain that difference to my Palestinian friends who must bury their children. On Nov. 5, Israel sealed all crossing points into Gaza, vastly reducing and at times denying food supplies, medicines, fuel, cooking gas, and parts for water and sanitation systems. A colleague of mine in Jerusalem said, "this siege is in a league of its own. The Israelis have not done something like this before." During November, an average of 4.6 trucks of food per day entered Gaza from Israel compared with an average of 123 trucks per day in October. Spare parts for the repair and maintenance of water-related equipment have been denied entry for over a year. The World Health Organization just reported that half of Gaza's ambulances are now out of order. According to the Associated Press, the three-day death toll rose to at least 370 by Tuesday morning, with some 1,400 wounded. The UN said at least 62 of the dead were civilians. A Palestinian health official said that at least 22 children under age 16 were killed and more than 235 children have been wounded. In nearly 25 years of involvement with Gaza and Palestinians, I have not had to confront the horrific image of burned children – until today. Yet for Palestinians it is more than an image, it is a reality, and because of that I fear something profound has changed that will not easily be undone. For how, in the context of Gaza today, does one speak of reconciliation as a path to liberation, of sympathy as a source of understanding? Where does one find or even begin to create a common field of human undertaking (to borrow from the late, acclaimed Palestinian scholar, Edward Said) so essential to coexistence? It is one thing to take an individual's land, his home, his livelihood, to denigrate his claims, or ignore his emotions. It is another to destroy his child. What happens to a society where renewal is denied and all possibility has ended? And what will happen to Jews as a people whether we live in Israel or not? Why have we been unable to accept the fundamental humanity of Palestinians and include them within our moral boundaries? Rather, we reject any human connection with the people we are oppressing. Ultimately, our goal is to tribalize pain, narrowing the scope of human suffering to ourselves alone. Our rejection of "the other" will undo us. We must incorporate Palestinians and other Arab peoples into the Jewish understanding of history, because they are a part of that history. We must question our own narrative and the one we have given others, rather than continue to cherish beliefs and sentiments that betray the Jewish ethical tradition. Jewish intellectuals oppose racism, repression, and injustice almost everywhere in the world and yet it is still unacceptable – indeed, for some, it's an act of heresy – to oppose it when Israel is the oppressor. This double standard must end. Israel's victories are pyrrhic and reveal the limits of Israeli power and our own limitations as a people: our inability to live a life without barriers. Are these the boundaries of our rebirth after the Holocaust? As Jews in a post-Holocaust world empowered by a Jewish state, how do we as a people emerge from atrocity and abjection, empowered and also humane? How do we move beyond fear to envision something different, even if uncertain? The answers will determine who we are and what, in the end, we become.

Sara Roy is a senior research scholar at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies, Harvard University, and the author, most recently, of "Failing Peace: Gaza and the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict."

Charles,

You have my voted for screening if not eliminating Michael's posts.  He has almost half the posts already, and I'm assuming that is after you have screened them, since he is complaining about it.

In addition, he doesn't address issues with fact-based reasoning.  He merely pontificates his own viewpoint, as if being his viewpoint is sufficient to justify it.  We can all tolerate that once or twice, but this is a veritable firehose....

Thank you.

Shelly, you made my point, shrapnel kills over a much larger range, vs the DIME, that is designed to kill only at short range, therefore the DIME if used would cause anyone close to the target to be saved, its a more precise weapon.

No proof it is being used, and how can anyone know if it causes cancer, that would take years to find out.

Myths about Gaza:

http://www.road90.com/watch.php?id=JLIhGGBxnv

>Has anyone seen a reasoned defense of lobbing rockets at Israeli civilians are part and parcel of a strategy for advancing the Palestinian agenda?

Yes? They keep doing it? They must have their reasons *shrugs*.

>This site is biased as hell. Biased against violence and intolerance. For that reason we get extreme pro-Palestinian voices denouncing the posts for being pro-Zionist, as well as supporters of Israeli violence denouncing it for being pro-Hamas.

Oh? Can you point to all your blogs exposing and condemning the hate and violence of Hamas and other violent suicide bombing movements in the Middle East?

Gosh, I'm not seeing those extremities showing up at all -- could you point to them?

>Has anyone noticed how the war proponents fail to note that the Palestine-Israel conflict was one of the reasons *cited* by al Qaeda leadership for their various attacks on us including 9/11.  In other words, the longer this goes on, the less safe the world is

Isn't that sick and dysfunctional? A relatively small conflict that doesn't produce anywhere near the victims of say, a war in the DRC or Afghanistan of Iraq, and these folks have to travel half way across the world and bomb people unrelated to their beef entirely, who are civilians. Could they focus on the myriad problems in their own countries and give up this obsessiveness and hysteria? What is it about this tiny country, surrounded by large, hostile forces, that so goads them, that they have to unleash war all across the world over it?

And, sooooo your solution is to let the Arabs and Palestinian and their suicide bombing movements overrun Israel, let Iran develop the bomb, and take over Iraq while the U.S. and other democracies stand idly by? Is that your concept for a better world? Do you  *honestly* think that's going to work out for the better?

I'm seeing posts in my mail box that seem to be removed by the moderator here.

So this isn't a conversation, but selective propaganda from the "moderator," who is decidedly on the left. Removing anyone's post is wrong in a liberal democracy. If they are wrong, or obsessive, or incite hate, the intelligent reader just scrolls past them. It's not a problem.

I can see that this is not a website I can participate in meaningfully, because news and views about the Middle East are evidently censored -- as they would be in the Arab media.

I don't know who you were addressing Catherine but no one here wants any suicide bombings to continue. But they don't happen in a vaccuum. They are  a direct response to something. They are a tactic, along with the Qassam rockets, that tell the world that people are still repressed, still occupied, still suffering and they want the world to notice. That's not a defense of those methods, it's what I have heard Palestinians say the last few days and it's what I've heard other people say who have some sympathy for repressed people.  Remember the old "terrorist" vs. "freedom fighter" argument.  The two are essentially the same, it just matters who is doing the judging. So a dedication to peace on every side is what is needed, not accusations that X did more violence than Y. There is no excuse for rockets or suicide bombers any more than there is any excuse possible for bombs on ambulances and mosques, as Israel has been doing the last few days.

Israel has essentially reduced themselves with their actions to the level of a terrorist.  I don't care what Tzipi Livni says, in my eyes she has mental problems.

Israel could have risen above it and acted  better than those they accuse of terrorism, but instead they have become what they despise.  But I'm not interested in that as much I'm interested in how to get them out of this cycle they are in.

Today I heard a man who lives in comfort in Israel saying that both sides will have to give things up that they wanted.  Palestine wants the occupation to end, that is necessary, but maybe they'll have to give some other things up, like land.  I don't see what else they have left to give up.

If my goal is censorship, I'm doing a crap-ass job!

As for censorship, as a person who runs several websites myself, the way I view it is that if you run a website that has a specific purpose, it is totally within your right to moderate viewpoints that appear there that go strongly against the goal of your website.  This is not the New York Times, this is a  website run for a purpose and I assume it has some type of goal. If someone violates that obviously,  especially with disruption and efforts to direct the conversation away from the purpose of the site, then the person who runs the site has evey right to redirect the site back to its purpose however they deem fit.  Sometimes that involves getting 'rid of' people who are badly disrupting the site.    I do that with my websites and so do most blog owners.  It's rare to find a blog or website these days that does not moderate comments at least to some extent. It's not "censorship".  You still have every right to say what you want, but there is no right you have that it will appear exactly where you want it to appear. Most people expect moderation on websites!  Unless it's an actual media site, like a news site. This is not a news website like CNN, and it exists with an agenda, like most websites.   There is no rule somewhere that says websites should be unbiased.

I stil l find it a little bit surprising that people expect most  websites (like this one or like mine) to be unbiased!  Where does that expectation come from?  You should defer to the person who's running it. They went to the effort to create it, after all.  

Someone here said "I subscribe to a pragmatic approach and you to a more idealistic approach".

I don't see anything pragmatic about  killing people, whether they are labeled "terrorist" before or after they die, or whatever.  It creates more people who hate you.  Israel is creating more people who hate them as the U.S. has created more terrorism by its wars. That's just a fact. It's recognized by the military, so why isn't war realized as the opposite of pragmatic by most people? 

After all, we are not trying to stop an advancing army from taking over an innocent village. We are supposedly trying to stop "terrorism".  You can't do that by violent actions that create more of it.  So obviously, violence is no way to fight violence.

Idealism would be something non-realistic or based on opinion, like (for instance) an opinion  that Muslims are bad, Christians are good. That's idealism.   Pragmatism is looking at a situation and seeing that things have not improved this "X" way, so let's try this "Y"  way.  Israel has been at war with Gaza  in years past and they are trying the same violent methods again, and the problem is still not solved, that is idealism.  There is nothing pragmatic about that.

Shelly, it is to early to see, if the current defensive action by the IDF is pragmatic. If it stops the rockets, its pragmatic. I still have not heard of a better solution to this problem.

All the moralists and the idealists are screaming "bloody murder" when Israel defends itself. I have not heard any complaints regarding the terror instigated on over 500,000 Israelis for the last three years, why is that?

A double standard?

What do you suggest, Shelly from your ivory tower we do?
I know you would move, but why should Israel move? Giving in to terror is no solution, if so then NY should move according to your solution, they experienced terror.

Shelly, if you cannot determine the difference between a terrorist and a country fighting to defend itself, than you have a problem not Livni.

A person or an organization that INTENTIONALLY target innocent people are terrorists, period.

Israel is doing the exact opposite of that, taking the most precautions possible to minimize civilian casualties, while taking out the terrorists that hide behind civilians.

On the other hand Hamas are purposely targeting civilians.

So you tell me, what is so hard to get here? No one likes violence, but cometimes "enough is enough" quoting Livni.

 

Michael, some light reading for you:

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/index_e.asp

Israeli soldiers tell us all about what they did and didn't purposely target.
There are also videos.
It's a  "Winter Soldier" for the IDF.

Shelly, it happens in any war, but this is not the policy of the Israeli government, for Hamas it is the policy to shoot civilians, that's the difference.

Read what's on the link I posted.

Israel military has bombed a school, at least one mosque, an ambulance, a market, and other places where it knew civilians would be. Don't tell me the evil terrorists hide among civilians. Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth, there is no other place for Hamas to be other than with the civilians, who elected them, by the way.

Here's a video for you to watch. It's the carnage after Israel bombed a market the other day.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

Warning, it's very graphic. If you can't watch it you can't defend what Israel is doing.  Israel's superiority complex leads to this. Don't tell me how their healthy bombs are good for people. The video illustrates  Israel's policy.

Now the text for the video says that it's from 2005, not recently. Yesterday it was on another website that said it was from a couple of days ago.  My apologies, this is an old video. 

Shelly, your logic is false, the Hamas could have built their headquarters in open areas outside of the major population centers, use Google map, their is plenty of room for Hamas if they had chosen to do so, but no, they intentionally hide munitions in schools and mosques, you can see the secondary explosives as proof of that, on some of the videos released and on the newscasts.

And yes they elected them, Hamas, a terrorist organization, that makes them responsible for the outcome of that election.

Shelly if you willingly hide a criminal, then you are an accomplice by any law. So don't blame Israel blame the terrorists voted into power as you say by the Palestinians, their choice. 

So don't complain when the victims of terrorists you so love cannot stand it anymore and decide to put a stop to 7,000 rockets raining on them for the last three years., they don't want to leave as you recommended.

Michael, if Gazan civilians are legitimate targets because they voted for Hamas, then by extension Israeli civilians are legitimate targets because they voted for Livni and Barak.

Folks might not know that the Israeli high command is at the Kirya, a military base in the center of Tel-Aviv, that the air force base is at Sde Dov, a stone's throw from Ramat Aviv, or that many other bases exist in the center of Ramat Gan, Jerusalem, and other cities.

Which is to say that in both Israel and Palestine, the military and civilians wings of each side are both representative and closely intertwined.And to make peace, the military machines of both sides need to be overcome by the citizenry.

Charles, the difference is that Hamas is a terrorist organization, that states in its charter its intent to destroy all Jews. Hamas intentionally targets civilians, Israel Intentionally avoids civilians, their lies the difference, if you and other protestors of Israel can't see the difference between the terrorist and his victims, then something is upside down in this world.

Israel is a democracy, and as such, the military is a tool of the people, not so in Gaza, the Hamas ceased control by force, and through out the PA.

A Democracy does not end with elections, but only begins their.
What we have in Gaza is a terror organization funded by Iran and Syria terrorizing for three years a peaceful neighbor trying now to protect its citizens, their is no symmetry in this situation, not morally nor politically.

What would get through to you?  Anything?  It's like talking to a brick wall.  I think the fun stopped when you said Israel doesn't target civilians for the 20th time.  If there was one shred of evidence for any of the slogans you fling around it would be possible to respond, but it's impossible.

Have fun playing with yourself.

On Democracy Now (go to www. democracynow.org) broadcast on the independent tv channel Link TV, Amy Goodman interviewed a UN reporter on the ground in Gaza. While Israel government states it has not interferred with the flow of humanitarian needs into Gaza the ground observer states that there is a severe lack of water, electricity, fuel and medicine. An Israeli citizen in Negev stated that his government provoked the missile strikes by Hamas and that there are large protests against the Israeli attacks.

The UN Security council met in secret session to vote on the Gaza attack, however, once again the U.S. refused to bring the vote up to public view and blocked attempts to call for ending the Israeli attacks. The General Assembly will have a better chance to open discussion about forcing Israel to end these barbaric attacks on the men, women, children and babies. Entire families are blown to bits as they huddle inside their homes.

The Israeli citizen spoke of how these attrocities are only inciting further Hamas attacks and expanding the number of Palestinians who are learning to hate Israel and want revenge.

Shelly, the proof is on the accuser, you and James and a few other people seem to think that Israel is the culprit in this clash, so please prove it.

In your world are we allowed to defend ourselves from terrorists?

Or should we all just leave our homes every time a rocket falls on them?

Do you justify the launching of rockets on civilians, forcing them to live in underground shelters for years?

Mike, this is what one of many of Pappe critics have to say about him. I would not put to much credence in one historian, who obviously is slanting history to meet his leftist view.

Efraim Karsh, regarded as the most vocal critic of the New Historians, also accuses Pappé of factual misrepresentations: "Readers are told of events that never happened, such as the nonexistent May 1948 Tantura "massacre" or the expulsion of Arabs within twelve days of the partition resolution.

They learn of political decisions that were never made, such as the Anglo-French 1912 plan for the occupation of Palestine or the contriving of 'a master plan to rid the future Jewish state of as many Palestinians as possible.
 And they are misinformed about military and political developments, such as the rationale for the Balfour declaration . ." .'[25]

Finally some progress tonight in the UN.  David Miliband, British Foreign Secretary, called for an immediate ceasefire.      Miliband also said that the crisis in Gaza is a collective failure and that "lives are at stake" in Gaza on a daily basis.  Over 600 dead, many of them women and children.  3o died today when Israel bombed a school where people were taking refuge.  He also said "The shortages of food, fuel and medicine are acute."  Finally, one of the world's major powers is admitting there should be an immediate ceasefire without putting all sorts of semantic conditions on it.

Also, Israel has agreed to set up a humanitarian corridor. They have been claiming for a week that there was no humanitarian crisis but I guess they finally figured out they were wrong.  Israel is also going to take some wounded.

Also today Obama said he would have "plenty to say" about the Middle East as soon as he is sworn in.  A lot of people have high hopes for what he might do as president and we are hoping he will care more about peace than oil and control.

if the following not make you re-think about war crimes commited by IDF then i agree with shelly, it is like talking to brick wall

http://www.alquds.co.uk/today/06z49.jpg

Quoting Benny Morris, M. Ross has claimed his reliability as a historian, "....expilsion was in the air in the war of 1948. From April on, Palestinian Arabs were the target of a series on concrete expulsions from individual villages, and towns."Clearly, the readiness to resort to compulsory transfer grew in the Yishuv's bureacracies and among its military units in the course of the first months of the fighting and as the fighting became more desperate, bloody and widespread, with Ben-Gurion himself setting the tone and indicating direction..." 

from Benny Morris, 'Revisiting the Palestinian exodus of 1948', p 49 in the book 'The War for Palestine'

These statements are made as he states because of new documents being declassified....

Norwegian doctor's SMS alerts from Gaza spread in Europe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6ojm62qwA

Norwegian doctor Mads Gilbert arrived one week ago in the Gaza Strip to assist Palestinian healthcare providers as the Israeli offensive drags on. With information limited in the Strip due to an Israeli ban on reporters in the territory, Gilbert has been sending SMS messages that are being forwarded to cell-phones throughout Europe. His messages have become an invaluable accounting of the dire medical situation in the Strip.   By ALEXANDRA SANDELS  


Norwegian doctor Mads Gilbert on a local TV program. Gilbert told reporters in Gaza has no plans on leaving even if he is risking his own life. R.R.

STOCKHOLM, January 6, 2008 (MENASSAT) – As the eleventh day of the Israeli military offensive comes to an end, accurate medical reports of the situation inside the Gaza Strip have become invaluable after Israel banned reporters from entering the Gaza Strip on December 27. Enter 61-year old Norwegian doctor, Mads Gilbert, whose SMS phone messages from a Gaza hospital are increasingly being cited in news reports throughout Europe.

A triage specialist, Gilbert has had extensive experience working in conflict zones such as Beirut during the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, and more recently Afghanistan. He says the situation in Gaza is the worst he’s ever seen.

'Closest you come to a massacre'

Gilbert and another Norwegian doctor, Erik Fosse, are part of a volunteer medical aid organization NORWAC – Norwegian Aid Committee. They arrived in Gaza on December 30, 3 days after Israel began its assault on the Strip to help Palestinian doctors at the overcrowded Al-Shifa hospital.

According to Gilbert, the Israeli offensive in such a densely populated place has created “massacres” because civilians stand “no chance of getting out of the line of fire.”

“The intensive care unit here is full of children with serious injuries. Twenty-five percent of the victims are women and children and forty-five percent of the injured are women and children. This is the closest you come to a massacre,” Gilbert told Swedish Radio.

Both Fosse and Gilbert are reportedly working around the clock to help the victims, which are increasing in numbers since Saturday’s ground invasion began. He says the two of them live in a room at the hospital and that Israel is pounding the area and “shooting at everyone and everything.”

“It's very cold and the Israelis are bombing the area all the time. Yesterday, three ambulance workers were killed when they were out picking up injured people,” Gilbert said.

SMS-ing the horrors

Israel has banned reporters from entering Gaza despite a December Israeli high court ruling that states eight journalists at a time be allowed to go in to the Strip – even as the Israeli military escalates its offensive.

Free press advocates claim that without the watchful eyes of outside reporters, the facts on-the-ground in Gaza are being sacrificed to remote wire reports and biased accounts.

But on Monday, Scandinavian countries began receiving SMS alerts on their mobile phones giving eyewitness accounts from Gilbert telling of the situation from Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza.

His original text messages to a colleague eventually made headlines in northern Europe.

One message read obtained by MENASSAT read: “We are swimming in death, blood, and amputated victims. Many children. Pregnant women. I've never experienced anything so awful.”

In the sms, Gilbert also claimed that Gaza's main vegetable market had been bombed on Monday morning, killing 20 people and injured 80.

Gilbert’s messages eventually became a doctor’s cry for people to take action to pressure European governments to pressure their leaders into brokering a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.

'Send it (the SMS) along, call it out. DO SOMETHING! DO MORE!,' Gilbert pleads in one SMS, adding, “We shouldn't call ourselves decent Europeans if we don't act to stop this.”

He told Swedish Radio, “This is the Warzaw ghettos of 2009,” an allusion to the NAZI offensive on the Jewish section of the Polish capital in the Second World War.

Israel said it intends to press on with its ground offensive, and despite the fact that conditions are worsening in the Gaza Strip, Gilbert has no plans on leaving even if he is risking his own life.

'We are here to help people and we're staying here,' he said.

With regards to the statement above by B. Ross who likes to quote Benny Morris. here is another regarding the Tantaura Massacre: "the new material he uncovered he says,indicates that Israeli soldiers were involved in more massacres of Arabs, and war crimes in the 1948 War of Independence than previously believed."

"Morris says he has found evidence of about two dozen cases of massacre and numerous other cases of arbitrary killing, and about 12 cases of rape."

Benny Morris argues the Ben-Gurion did not go far enough but should have expelled 700,000 Palestinians to enable the growth of an Israeli state.

Tantura exemplifies the Zionist scheme to force the Palestinians from their homes. The Israeli military raised the village and either killed or expelled the Palestinians and replaced them with  Jewish settlers.

here's my views on your 'myths' Charles, and when i say 'true' that means i'm agreeing with you

'myth' 1 is false, conspiracies are nonexistent. Israel left the Gaza strip completely, leaving it as a republic voting in a terror organization.

'myth' 2 is correct, at least before November, during the lull in the attacks Israel did not meet with a hamas willing to talk. and if you're willing to negotiate, then you must have some concessions you are willing to put on the table

'myth' 3, that is also false, they have very precise bombs called smart bombs (ever see future weapons? good show) that hit only the target within 5 meters, which is not a large area. after all they are re-acting, and Hamas is placing civilians in the way on purpose, not carpet bombing areas in Gaza city.

'myth' 4 is false, Israel can't (and won't) take control over Gaza's border with Egypt, so that right there is false. as for the Palestine state taking residence there, it is extremely hard to do that, after all Palestine is land-locked and broken and can not get to it's separate areas without going through another country. So unless more concessions are made by Israel for a unified Palestine (which would in turn create a broken Israel) it is better to support individual statehood

'myth' 5, i think that's mostly true

'myth' 6, is true

'myth' 7, is false. Israel cannot open up it's border with Gaza if hamas provides a threat to them, and terrorists do not have uniforms

'myth' 8, true, mostly. Israel doesn't want to destroy Hamas, just prevent Hamas attacking them. it's not attacking it's defending

'myth' 9, true

'myth' 10, true, and that's why Israel is avoiding as many civilian casualties as possible