Pro-Israel sounds like Palin's Pro-American... intentional divisive, creating a "us vs. them" mindset. I am for peace, and sympathize more with Palestine than Israel. My feelings about Judaism or the Jewish people have nothing to do with it. The only chance for peace is a two state settlement... the sooner the better. I fear that even if there is a settlement, attacks against Israel won't stop for a long long time.

I'm a nitpicker -- it's a little 'd' on "Jewish and democratic."

The only civil and humans solution is the two state solution. The world will not accept wiping out the West Bank or Gaza. Period.  I don't think it makes you anti-Israel to say this or believe this.  I like your writing as well, Charles.

There is no question that the most civil and humane action is to support a solution between the Palestinians and Israel.  Just because one doesn't support wiping out the West Bank and Gaza does not mean they are anti-Israel.  I like what "Friendly Reader" says: True peace and security will come to Israel when they make peace with their neighbors.  That means the whole Middle East in my opinion.  The time is now. And it can be done.

sorry for the double post:)  just getting the hang of this..

CHANGE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, TO PEACE First, we need to set the factual record straight: NEARLY ALL OF THE PALESTINIAN CLAIMS REGARDING THE TERRITORY OF ISRAEL ARE FALSE AND BASED ON MISINFORMATION AND LIES PERPETUATED OVER THE LAST 60 YEARS.  The Jewish people have lived in the land of Israel on and off for over 5,000 years.The “Palestinians” are not separate from other Arab people in the Middle East, such as Jordanians and Egyptians.Jordan’s, Syria’s and Iraq’s boundaries are not natural; the British artificially created them.Upon creation of the modern state of Israel by the UN in 1948, all of the surrounding Arab nations attacked the nascent state; they lost, and as a result, the territory of Israel changed, and refugees were created.Over the past 60 years, Israel has taken in millions of Jewish refugees from almost every country in the world. The Arab countries have taken in close to zero Arab refugees resulting from wars they started with Israel repeatedly over this same period.With the exclusion of Turkey and possibly Iraq, all Muslim countries are dictatorial, and as such, they seek or create a common enemy in order to justify their control over their populations; that enemy, by choice of their dictators, is Israel.Until these dictatorial Muslim countries headed now by Iran change their ways, there will be no peace with Israel. The simple reason is that they fund the terror organizations that destabilize and mislead the Muslim population in the area. IN SUMMARY, PEACE CAN ONLY BE ACHIEVED BY CREATING A REALITY WHEREBY IRAN AND OTHER THEOCRACIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST CAN NO LONGER REALIZE A BENEFIT FROM A CONTINUOUS STATE OF WAR WITH ISRAEL.  IN THIS NEW REALITY, PEACE HAS A LARGER BENEFIT TO THE ARAB THEOCRACIES THAN WAR.  

Thanks for the bold caps... I almost missed the point.
You say that the borders of Iraq and Syria are "not natural" as they were created by the British. Are Israel's borders more "natural?"

Anthony, Israel's borders are not "natural" either. Historicaly Israel reached Iran during biblical times, my point is that Israel has always been part of the ME, not so for Jordan or Syria, and that the Arab claims that Israel is a foreign object in the ME are false and not true. In order to reach peace the Arabs must first accept the factual historical truth and leave their fantasies behind, and second their leaders must stop using Israel as a scapegoat for all their failings as a culture.

Why do we care what is "natural"? Italy, Germany, Poland and countless other states were not in existence 150 years ago. So what?

Good point Charles, we don't care. So why do Arab nations keep claiming that Israel is a "foreign" object in the ME, when many of the Arab states are just as "foreign"? Like I mentioned earlier these are false claims, the truth is that these theocracies are using and funding terrorist activities in order to sustain their dictatorships with a "common enemy", and until that passes they will be no peace, even if the Arabs living in Israel want it. We need to deal with the root cause first.

Further more, Charles, Italy, Germany, Poland and countless other states were created as the end result of wars, and now live in peace with each other. The problem we have with Arab states is that they do not accept the fact that if you lose a war you need to accept the concequences, that sometime are loss of territory. The Arabs have lost countless wars with Israel and will not accept that fact and move on, and insist on Israel returning territories to them. Since when in history do the losers dictate the terms of peace?

The latest definitive statement about what Arab nations think is the Saudi peace initiative of 2002, recently endorsed by - wait for it - President Shimon Peres and Defence Minister Ehud Barak. I'm not sure about your claim regarding what Arab nations think. Have they ever spoken in one voice? There is a wide diversity of voices across the Arab world, and while some of them are extremist, I'm encouraged by the Arab League's (and Hamas's) endorsement of a two state solution.

Israel, being the country with the most power/military might should be the one most responsible for enacting a peace plan. Believing that "the Arabs" (how many countries are we talking about?) have to collectively leave their fantasies behind, is a fantasy.
As for Israel's rightful place in the ME, look at it this way. If 50 years ago Native Americans somehow took over California, declared independance, and defended it militarily, would that be "right?" You could call it Kharma, but America wouldn't be happy about it, and it would be condemed.

I would approach such ideas with extereme caution, a Palestinian state in the midst of Israel may turn out to be a Trojan horse. Until Saudi stops funding Islamic extreme schools, over 50,000 to date I would not trust them with anything, not less peace with Israel. Only Egypt and Jordan have ever kept a peace agreement with Israel and they are not theocracies but secular dictatorships, and Egypt defacto is in a non-war situation with Israel, nothing like the peace between Britain and Germany for example.

Anthony, your analogy with Native Americans is not valid. Israel did not "take over" any land in the ME. The UN voted and gave the jews the right to live in Israel. That same day the surounding Arab nations attacked Israel, did not accept the world order and lost, and still today are griping about it. So how should Israel make peace with a culture that puts pride ahead of pragmatism?

Why should Palestinians and Arabs in the surrounding regions be OK with the UN determining the rights of Israeli's to have their own country? The UN was preceded by the British who had control of the regioun through military force. None of the surrounding Arab nations were members of the UN, so where does their authority come from?

I think rehashing the history of the conflict is meaningless, unless you are a historian. It's 2008 folks. Wake up!

Charles, good point lets move on. The crux of the matter is that in order to solve any problem, you have to be reality based vs wishfull thinking based. Wishfull thinking will only lead to disaster.
So lets start with Egypt, Egypt is a weak secular dictatorship, they need to get stronger for them to negotiate a real peace agreement  with Israel. Then Egypt needs to take full responibility for the Gaza strips fomer Eygptian population, open borders and free immigration into Egypt for the Arabs living there. Second Jordan, a stronger secular dictatorship, for Jordan to have a true peace agreement with Israel they need to accept back the former Jordanians now living in the West Bank. Israel and Jordan should negotiate on how to split the West Bank between them. Syria, a military dictatorship should cease all support for terrorists, then negotiate a peace agreement with Israel whereas they would lease the Golan Heights to Israel for 100 years. Iran should cease all efforts to create nuclear weapons and then be accepted back into the rule of nations. For starters this is a reality based peace plan. A Palestine as a seperate entity ended with the UN resolution in 1948, so stop this fantasy of a new Palestinian state, that is just another way of getting rid of Israel. Prior to the six day war, no one wanted a Palestinian state, so why now? Another example of wishfull thinking. 

A Palestinian state makes no sense. When was the last time you looked at a map of the ME, Israel a few thousand square miles and the Arab countries millions of square miles, do you really think they need another state, that will be nocontiguous, give me a break, just another way to get rid of Israel. A Palestinian state will be a base for Hamas to fire rockets at Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem that will lead to another war, that will end with Israel controling the West Bank again, so whats the point? A reality based peace should be based on the facts I stated earlier.

You guys obviously know much more about the history etc. of this region and conflict than I do, so I'll quit pestering you.
My final thought is this. You list off many things that Iran, Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc. should do, but for Israel, the only responsiblity of Israel is deciding which land should rightfully be theirs. How can peace be achieved with an attitude of "its ours... tough luck?"

Anthony, good idea to know the subject you wish to debate and not base your arguments on lies and propaganda initiated by one side. To achieve peace their has to be a true understanding of the history involved that led to a state of war between Israel and its neighbours. The Arab populace in general are illiterate and fed a daily diet of lies from their leaders, until that changes there can be no peace, and its not about land, Anthony, its about Arab pride, they are still living culturally in the fourth century.

Mr. anonymous, you are wrong on all of your points, but before I dispute them, first I grew up in Israel, my grandparents were killed by the nazis and I fought Jordanian and Egyptian soldiers in two wars.
If you want to enter into an intelligent discussion about how to bring peace to the area, fine, but first you must stop hiding.

Mr. Anonymous lets take your point number 13. You state that Israel is a failed state, and your metric is the number of Jews living in Israel vs the number living overseas, the ratio being 6/5 or 1.2. So lets take Saudi Arabia home to Mecca and Medina holy sites to the Muslims: Number of Muslims living in Saudi Arabia is 24.6 million, number of Muslims living out of Saudi Arabia is approx. one billion, ratio of  40/1 so according to your logic Saudi Arabia is a failed state by a factor of 33 more than Israel. Lets look at the Vatican, the holy city state of the Christians, population 800,000. About one billion Christians live outside of the Vatican so the failure rate of the Vatican is 1,250/1, do I need to continue this line of logic? Lets take a more acceptable metric, how about GDP per capita: Israel - $18,420; Egypt - $1,210; Saudi Arabia - $12,590; Iran - $2,730; in fact I challenge you to find one Muslim country with a higher GDP per capita than Israel. Pretty good for a failed state. I will be generous, why don’t you pick a metric and we shall see if Israel is lower than any Muslim state.

Michael Ross,

The fact that your grandparents were killed by Hitler's dream of "Aryan Purity" and your childhood and service in the IDF <b>do not add validity to your statements.</b>

They are merely facts.

When the discussion of Judenstaat comes to discussing facts, please begin with Theodore Herzl and "The Dreyfus Affair," then please move on to discuss the first Zionist Congress of 1897 in Besel, Switzerland and also the 6th Jewish Congress's, (1903, Besel) vote on Britain's offer of the "Uganda Project" (voting to accept land in UGANDA from Britain for Judenstaat 295 yes vs 178 no with 98 abstensions.

While you are presenting, to the unitiated, the facts on the origins of der Judenstaat, please elucidate on why Herzl felt compelled to have the Russians improve Jewish conditions in Russia, as the failure to do so is what cause the Russian delegation to storm out of the 6th Zionist Congress (now The World Zionist Organization since it renaming in 1960).

You may also want to explain the Balfour Declaration, its intentions and its agreed upon policies set forth for both Palestinians, Jews and the international community; include within the discourse on the agreed upon boundaries of 1948 and the pre-emptive attacks of Ben-Gurion to redefine those boundaries.

Then, it might serve the historically uneducated to learn how the UN dealt with the violation of these boundaries and the 100 plus sanctions against the STATE of Israel.

Having claimed the high ground due to your patrinage, birthplace and mandatory IDF service, I trust you to do a better job than a French Catholic.

I have yet to read a statement or arguement that defines, "What it is to be Pro-Israel," perhaps you can provide more clarity on the topic of this blog as well.

You'll all be pleased to know that I'm now deleting pro-Palestinian posts for being vile. Sigh.

Charles,

I am not "pleased to know."

Defeating ignorance, anti-Jewish rhetoric and actions, racism and zenophobia is not done by "vanishing" the opposing views.

Seeing the opposing views and the discourse is what allows people to form opinions and beliefs formed upon facts, and yes, oft time, unproven statements; disproving those  statements is the counterpoint to ignorance.

There is no point to discussing "What is Pro-Israel" if all posts that are Pro-Palestinian are "disappeared." The current proposal of a Two-Nation State requires inclusion of Pro-Palistinian commentary.

It's pointless to discuss a solution to these long open hostilities without including all the major players.

That would also include discussing whether it is Pro-Israel for U.S.A. politicians to kowtow to every Jewish society to "ensure" they are "electable" because they "stand on the side of Israel," as well as discussing the funding of armaments, Billions of dollars from the USA for highly advanced equipment (which they have been sanctioned for, by the USA, for selling, illegally, to the CHINESE) versus the amount and quality of weaponry and funding sources of the Palestinian armaments.

Vile is what the reader infers, not necessarily what the writer implied.

Ok Mr Ross

My post got deleted because i spoke my mind but that is ok. i am not upset.

First of all , i am not hiding  and i have no reason to hide. my name is wael and i will be happy to provide you with any more info.

Now let us talk about your post about there are more muslim outside saudi and more catholic outside the vatican.

there is no such thing as a whole muslim land only for the muslims and there is no such thing as there is a country for catholic. religon is not a nationality. there are muslim all over the world and they do not claim a promised land. same for all other religon. the state of israel is the only state where it says that it is the promised land for the Jewish people. so if you are an american Jew, then u have the right to live here and take over so other palestinan house who has meen here for 2000 years. any muslim can not go to saudi and ask to live there just because he is muslim.

2) I am really sorry to hear that your family was affected by hitler. it tells me that you are german and germany is your home land but because of the dispicable act of hitler you had to move to palestine but remember, you are doing to the palestinane what hitler did to your family, you should fight german not palestinane . they did not do anything to your family.

3) israel GDP is better, israel wins wars because of the help and the support of the rest of the world. take for example the 1973 war when israel lost but with the help and support of the U.S they were able to keep the status que.

4) if israel GDP is so great, why do you take over 8 billion dollars from the u.s , and take more from germany every year. you sould save these nations that money since you are doing so well.

my last post was taken out because some of what i said was offensife so i will clean it up and put it back

More figures for a “failed nation” source The Economist (a British conservative weekly).Gender-related development index: Israel # 22 with 92.5 Kuwait # 31 with 86.4Bahrain # 38 with 84.9No other Muslim states made the list.Global competitiveness Israel #21Jordan #37No other Muslim nation made the list.The business environment Israel #23UAE #24The rest not on the list.Business creativity and research Israel #7No Muslim states on this list.Information and communications technology Israel #18No Muslims on this list.Total expenditure on R&D as % of GDP Israel Number one in the world with 4.55%Zero Arab states on this list.Diabetes1. UAE2. Kuwait3. Oman7. Egypt10. Syria15. Iraq16. Jordan Israel did not make this listLowest population per doctor Israel #13No Muslim nations here.TV ownership Israel #20Kuwait #31No more Muslims made this list.Computer ownership per capita Israel #4 Saudi Arabia #30Kuwait #37UAE #42Bahrain #47No more Muslim states on this list Mobil phones per capitaIsrael #8Bahrain #15UAE #18No Muslims hereInternet hosts per capitaIsrael #19 No Muslims made this listNobel Prize winners Israel Peace #10, Economics #5, Chemistry #9Muslim states zeroDeath penalties Iran #2Saudi Arabia #7Kuwait #9Egypt #11Yemen #11Lebanon #15Israel not on this list.Protected areas for environment Israel #11Jordan #29DO YOU GET THE PICTURE,NOT BAD FOR A “FAILED STATE” Don’t you think, Wael?  Israel is a beam of light in the ME, in innovation, technology, Nobel Prizes, Nobel Peace prizes, forget the past and seek change. The Arab nations could learn from Israel how to prosper and grow. Israel has extended a hand for peace numerous times and has been bitten repeatedly. You need to convince your leaders that they have more to gain from peace with Israel then war. Instead of spreading more hate that leads to more death, the seemingly only product the Arab nations excel in, you should teach the next generation in your schools to forgive and love your neighbors, not to kill and hate and blow themselves up. The Arab countries are the only ones in the world that export suicide bombers. You should look inwards before blaming Israel for all your faults.                 

Charles i have changed what you asked me to change because i think you have a point but i do not think what i said was vile


Mr. Ross

I am really glad your are talking about the roots because just like you I also think that we need to talk about the roots.

let me tell you about the history of that area from a different perspective
for the last 2 thousand and more years, there was never a state called Israel , and Jewish people we never the majority of the population in Palestine. In fact they never lived there according to your book ( the old testament first book of Genesis) where it says you were sent there as align from Egypt so u can be saved from the Egyptians. so all the Israelite tripe moved from Egypt to Palestine so according to your book , you are a guest.

2) when you talk about Jewish used to live there since 2000 years ago, So what , they used to live in Saudi Arabia , Egypt , Iraq, Yemen, germany ETC. does that mean they get to have this as their country and kill everyone else like they did with the poor Palestinians.

3) you said there is not boundaries called palestine. you need to read the Balfour declaration, this is the England declaration that promised a Jewish land in PALESTINE. that is what it says ( the land of PALESTINE) if you can not find the deceleration i will be happy to send it to you. isn't that amazing, you promise someone Else's land that is not even yours. to a German Jew just because the German Jews betrayed their country Germany in  world war one and give info to the English and they also collapsed Germany's economy by taking out all their money!!!!!   according to the league of nation after world war one, England will have a mandate over Palestine. A mandate will not allow England to promise or give any land to anyone else other than the original inhibitians of this land, a mandate is help the people to gain their Independence. so according to the league of nations own rules. it is illegal to promise Palestine to any one

4) Palestine was not the Zionist first option , it was Argentina but since they could not take it then they were OK with taking Palestine.

5) before the coming of Islam Jewish were killed and murdered by the roman and when the Muslim took over Palestine, the Jewish were the happiest. even after the Christians took over Spain from the Muslims, Jewish ran away and moved to Muslim countries like Turkey, Morocco and Palestine. as any educated Jew and he will tell you that they had their golden age under the Muslims. and that is how you pay them back, by killing them and calling them terrorists.

7) after the blow up of king David hotel by Jewish gangs that came to take over Palestine and kill every Palestinians. this group that killed hundreds of English citizens was on England top terrorist list. you know who is a part of this group. rahm emanual's father. so a terrorist son is the white house chief of staff. ( that is what it means to be pro Israel)

8) you will never be happy or satisfied with the land you have now , because you think god promised you everywhere from the Nile to the river. that is your dream, controlling the world.

9) you justify high jacking a country and come from over the world to take someone Else's land and kill them and destroy them. and you say the reason is they lost the war and Israel is stronger. this is exactly what Churchill said before world war 2. he said the better and the stronger race should dominate and take over the land. but he changed his mind when Hitler kicked his ass in the war and immediately called him a terrorist.

10) if you say that you are there because you have a bigger gun, then do not cry when Palestinians use your method to get their land back.
Israeli's with all their power will never be able to go to sleep in peace because the know it is not their land.   11) it is only a matter of time before Muslims wake up from their deep sleep and get their land back. at this time, no one will have sympathy for you because of what you caused these Palestinian victims. be fair when you are on top so when you go down others will be fair to you

12) in 1948 and after all the illegal Jewish immigration to Palestine, Jewish was only 6% of the populations, how do you justify that the minority of 6% takes over the whole land and kill or move the 94% of the people.

13) Israel is a failed state already, there are 5 million Jews in Israel now , but there are  6 million in America,  if they really love their so called land, why don't they move there?

I just totally agree with web design. I am not as eloquent and well versed in sources, but I do know my history and it is so obvious to me why the Muslim world cannot get past their hatred of Israel.   The ARab people were a tribal people long ago before the Zionist's came to claim the land that is now Israel.  The Arabs did not have formal documents or such to show which land belonged to whom and the Zionists came and shrewdly took over the land of the Arab people. Then categorically rounded up and killed or pushed out the first inhabitors of that land.  It was wrong no matter WHAT you call it.  What kind of response could be expected??

The current living conditions for the people of Gaza is completely not acceptable. It is inhumane! Period.  And the concrete barrier and check points is also inhumane.  And Israel wonders WHY it is nearly impossible to reach an agreement.

I don't want to seem anti-Israel, because as I understand many many Israelis also see that something needs to be done about the conditions for the Palestinian people.  But, I don't like bullies.  And my country the USA is a bully at times, and Israel is a bully and it is not right.

Thank you web design. I just wish we had so much discussion around something more positive - like, what is the best way to help Gazans? Maybe that's an idea for another post....

Also, for those of you sincerely wishing to make a difference - Change.org will let you raise money for a nonprofit or use our tools to support a cause. If I see something good, I'll promote it in a posting devoted to it!

body {margin:8px} .tr-field {font:normal x-small arial}Mr Ross

i am not arguing with you about who is the smartest. i agree with you that Jewish people are very smart and gifted. if you guys were not smart you would have not been able to take a land from a billion people. you are 6 million in America out of 300 million American but you form 40% for the U.S senate and almost own all U.S media and financial institutions.

2) by the way you said no Muslim have even won the noble price. Ahmed Zwael won it in 2004 in chemistry , Mohamed from Bangladesh won in 2005 and more but this is not the issue. i do not really care who won the noble price because winning the noble price has nothing to do with taking over a land from someone else. I truly wish for israel to be the best place on earth and win all the noble prices and win even all soccer world cup but not on someone else's land. I think we have a great solution that even sara palin will be very happy with, she support the Jewish people and she is willing to go to war with the rest of the world to help them, So i say you guys should take Alaska and prosper there with people who love you and want to help you.

3) Muslims did not invent suicide bombing and they are not the highest rate suicide bombers in the world, you are wrong again Mr ross, let me correct you please.
the one's that created suicide bombing are the Tamils of srilanka and the highest rate of suicide bombing is in srilanka. the Tamils are by the way hinds not Muslim and Hinduism is very peaceful. the number one reason for suicide bombing according to the U.N is occupation not realign. but i assure you that if you give the Palestinian f16, tanks and bombs . i can assure you that there will not be any more suicide bombing but unfortunaty you will never let that happen even though you have an atomic bomb.


4) i am very glad you changed your mind and you do not want to talk about the past anymore. now you want to talk about the future but before i come to this blog you only wanted to talk about the roots.

5) talking about the future, this whole game is not in the U.S hand. if the u.s stop the blind support to Israel and starts to play an honest broker. then they will be a solution to this problem. Israel is the only state in earth that occupy 3 different nations. Palestine, Syria and Lebanon. Israel needs to give up their dreams of expansion and the fact that they can teach the Arab lessons by defending them. i think Hezbollah made it clear that Israel is no longer the power they thought they were. peace means justice, peace means feeling really sorry for what they did to the Palestinians.

6) you are wrong again Mr ross about the fact that Israel wants peace, you want a peace where you can take Palestine , Jerusalem, part of Syria and part of Lebanon. have your settlement in the westbank. that is the peace you are looking for. this is not peace Mr. ross , you can not have your cake and eat it.

7) i am sorry i do not want to high jack this post but i had to answer Mr. ross.
Pro Israeli means you have to agree with any and every thing that Israel does including the killing of Innocent people and if you do not, then you are anti Semitic , a Jew hater , a bigot and maybe a terrorist and if you are Jewish then you are a self hating Jew.
Charles i like the fact that you help the people of Gaza i will be willing to help out in anyway for as much as you need me. 
 I will be quite now.

Dear Mr. Ross,

I read most of your posts on here just now.  I think what you (well, and everyone else that I've read on here) are failing to mention is that there is a near-consensus amongst the international community, including the majority of Palestinians and Israelis, on how to resolve the conflict.  It is voted on every year in the United Nations, and it's called the two-state settlement.  The only reason it hasn't passed is because the governments of Israel and the United States have prevented it.

If the 1947 UN Partition Resolution validates Israel's right to a state, as you say it does (and I agree with you), then why isn't UN Resolution 242 just as important?  And why isn't the 2004 opinion of the Internation Court of Justice valid when it says the Jewish settlements in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) are illegal, that the pre-1967 borders are still valid, and that Israel must dismantle the wall (and pay compensation to Palestinians affected by it)?

I find it astounding that Israeli leaders are now talking about the Saudi peace plan like it's a good idea.  What they don't talk about is that it was first proposed in 2002 (six years ago!) and that it was endorsed by every member of the Arab League, as well as the Palestinian Authority.  Now, I realize we must move on from that point because it's in the past.  However, my hope is that Livni or Netanyahu (whichever becomes the next Israeli PM), will embrace the will of nearly the entire world and put an end to this conflict.  We can talk about our own opinions all we want, but in the end, the only opinion that matters is the international consensus.

I will define what I believe it means to be Pro-Israel, but first:

We could forever spend time justifying Israel's historical right over its present territory, and forever denouncing the legitimacy of a Palestine presence, much less a Palestine nation.

I would rather deal with the realities that exist now, regardless of historical claims. Whether justified or not, I accept the presence of Israel within its originally UN mandated borders. And, whether legitimate or not, I acknowledge a movement in favor of an independent Palestinian nation. The support for this movement is continuing to transcend both generations in time, and national boundaries in space.

Rightly or wrongly, "Palestinian Nationhood" has become a favorite cause of all disenfranchised, militant or otherwise, throughout the Mideast and beyond. When elder US statesmen like Jimmy Carter begin comparing Israel's actions to South Africa's apartheid, you then realize that Israel is losing the propaganda war.

Let’s move away from the never-ending debate over legitimacy claims on both sides and search for a pragmatic solution. In this context, I will define how I am Pro-Israel. As a US citizen, my world view is inexorably affected by my desire for peace and prosperity in my own country. How to achieve this was forever changed after the trauma of 9/11/01. Before then, I took peace and prosperity for granted – at least within my own borders.

I want the same thing for Israel. I want lasting peace and continual prosperity for Israel. This is my "pro-Israel" hope. To achieve this, I would lobby for what I call "positive disengagement" from Israel. My goal would be for the US government to publicly take a stand against the continual encroachment of West Bank settlements by Israel, including a withdrawal of those already settled in violation of existing UN mandates. Ideally, I’d like to see a stand against all settlements outside of the original UN mandated border. Either way, I doubt that Israel would comply. With non-compliance, the consequence would be a termination of all military contracts and foreign aid.

While this may seem less than friendly to Israel, it’s really a form of tough love. I want to see Israel prosper, but I don’t think it’s going to happen unless the US can publicly extricate itself from its no-win relationship with Israel. The US has the strongest military in the world and Israel has the strongest military in the middle east. Neither country needs to fear a more objective, neutral and independent relationship. It’s no surprise that the US has been ineffectual in facilitating any long term peace agreement with Israel and the people in Gaza or the West Bank. Any influence we could have in that area is completely subjugated by our current dysfunctional relationship with Israel.

I’m not inferring that our "positive disengagement" with Israel will influence its actions. In fact, I regularly read Israeli political blogs, and I find many voices sharing the same opinion: that Israel does not want to be told what to do by the US and that the US can keep its military and foreign aid. Whether Israel changes or not, at least the US would be able to step away from the harmful consequences of the past relationship. We could then rebuild our relationships with the majority of moderate Mideast nations, regardless of the type of government. The most strategically effective weapon against the Islamic militants is complete marginalization. If militants and their message are no longer accepted within their own country or region, they have no place to go. This is more powerful than any military might, and has recently been demonstrated in the significant collapse of Al-Queda strength in Iraq by the collective will of the Sunni factions, identified as the "Awakening Councils".

As we rebuild and strengthen our relationships with Israel’s neighbors (both friends and enemies), the dynamics in that region will change. With an increased sense of security, Israel just may decide to unilaterally withdraw its presence in the West Bank. With this newly available land, a final solution to the long ignored Palestinian refugee problem can be addressed. With financial aid and cooperation of neighboring countries, (currently holding refugees), a realistic plan for compensation and resettlement (in various countries) can be developed. The result of this plan, favorable to Israel, is that it will finally put an end to any continual resettlement claims within the original borders of Israel. And of course, with Israel’s withdrawal, the US could again offer military and economic assistance, if needed.

As religions and as ethnic people, both Jews and Muslims can point to many times throughout history where their cooperation has led to periods of great economic growth and achievements. Unfortunately, this recent period of strife has all but obliterated the history of these past harmonious periods.

I am Pro-Israel and my dream is a 100 year anniversary celebration in 2048 in which Israel and its surrounding neighbors have developed a Mideast Union of countries with shared economic and environmental prosperity. An area whose earliest recorded histories are integrated with the foundations of the major religions in that area. An area, that in the mid 21st century, could once again lead the world in the universality of the "golden rule".

At this moment, on both sides of the Jordan River, there are young kids on swings and slides, and young kids playing soccer. It’s for them that I want Israel and all its neighbors, including a viable and contiguous Palestinian nation to work towards this 100 year celebration: A celebration of one nation’s birthday and a celebration of an entire region’s peace and prosperity.

I will try to answer the question, what does it mean to be pro-Israel?It means to be pro-peace, pro-progress, pro-truth, pro-freedom, pro-equal rights for all citizens, it means to be a modern 21st century democratic state.Israel is number one in the world in R&D expenditures 4.55% of GDP.
Number seven in business creativity and research.
Number eight in mobile phones per capita.
Number four in computer ownership per capita.
Number five for Nobel prizes in economics, number nine in Nobel prizes in chemistry.
And number eleven in protected areas for the environment.
That's what it means to be pro-Israel.

On the other hand Iran is number one in the number of death penalties, Saudi Arabia number seven, Kuwait number nine and Egypt and Yemen both number eleven, and Lebanon number fifteen, Israel does not have the death penalty, that's what it means to be pro-Israel.
Source: The Economist.

Israel must make some concessions toward peace. When England who controlled Palestine and allowed the Zionist to settle there it was agreed that neither they nor the Palestinians  would control the other.  When The Zionist fought to overthrow the British the Palestinians sided with Britian. So when Israel won their independence they drove the Palestinians from their land. That has been the main cause for trouble in the region every since. the only solution is a two state solution. Israel must stop their settlements in Gaza and the West Bank. Both should give up their claim of Jerusalem as capital and  share it as a holy city.
Both the United States and Israel needs to respect the duly elected government of Palestine including Hamas. We sould support Israel against enemies that would destroy it as we would any ally but not to the exclusion of a Palestinian homeland. We must not allow Israel or any other ally to lobby of government to the extent which it has been allowed in the past. 

For all you history buffs please visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
You will find maps and lots of history. In summary Ancient Israel when jews lived in the land of Israel dates back to 925 BC under King Solomon. Then the Maccabean period starts in 165 BC. Modern Israel starts in 1917 under British rule, and the State of Israel in 1948. So please stop this nonsense of Israel occupying land, if anything it is the "Palestinians" occupying Israeli land now. The West Bank and Gaza is not Arab land under any rule of law, they live their because of the good will of Israel. Israel supplies them with electricity, power, water and food. If anything it is the Arab countries that should be taking care and letting the Arabs living in these areas migrate freely and find employment in other arab countries, just like Israel took in million of Jews from Arab countries. So if you want peace you have to be willing to face reality and not lies and propaganda feed to you daily by Arab dictators, trying hard to hold on to their power.

Daniel Ford,
Israel tried that approach with Gaza. Israel gave the Gazans independence, a profitable agricultural land, and look what happened, Hamstan, a haven for terrorists firing rockets at innocent civilians, chidren and mothers with babies.
Daniel, please read you history books and not base your opinions on Arab propaganda. Israel did not drive anyone from their land. Six Arab nations in violation of international law invaded Israel in May of 1948, what happened after that is the cause and responsbility of those Arab nations that unprovoked attacked a sovergn nation, Israel. They do not take responsibility to this day for that criminal act, and still the inhabitants of Israel from that area are living in refugee camps for over 60 years. Why have they not takne care of their own? Israel did.

body {margin:8px} .tr-field {font:normal x-small arial}i already answered all your historical fantasies and you have not responded to a single comment i made except that Israel is so great and won many noble prices. you need to stop creating a fantasy history. there was never Israel and the fact that you say Palestinian are the occupiers says a lot about the way you view the world. i do not think any one will be able to make u see the truth. but i am telling you that the whole world are starting to see the truth regardless of the Israeli controlled media and when people know the truth they will change and when they change, the truth will prevail. Israel will never have peace because they want everything. so for you guys who wants a a two state solutions and a real peace, you can forget about it. Israel will never let that happen.

Wael, I did answer your points, they are all non-true, please visit the following website, Wikipedia is quite correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

We can't have a discussion if we can't agree on the facts. I brought up the facts from the Economist because this a third party with no interest in our discussion, therefore it has unbiased facts. You on the other hand are full of invented fantasies created by Arab dictators to serve their needs, so in the future without a source for your facts, please do not waste everyones time on nonsense and fantasy and wishfull thinikng. Israel is so succesfull a nation because it bases its decisions on reality and not on fantasy. For example Israel under the Maccabees ruled a huge part of the ME in 165 BC thats 2173 years ago, check out the map on Wikipedia, you may learn something not coming from the Arab propaganda machine, all lies. Close to 3000 years ago king Solomon ruled a large area in the ME. So stop the lies, please.

Michael Ross it appears the history books you read were written by Zionist who believe that they have some historical claim to that land. It is the intolerance of that opinion that makes peace so elusive in the region. It has been Israel lobbing rockets onto civilians for 60 years. Do not try to convince me that they are victims. In the 1948 Israel war of Independence most Arab states sided with Britain. There have been no unprovoked attacks on Israel. Most of the region supports the Palestinians because Israel has made the refugees. Israeli independence violated the terms to which the original settlers agreed. The world allowed Israel to terrorize the region because of our guilt over the Holocaust. Israel has used that to their advantage for far too long. If Israel were to act reasonably and responsibly other nations in the region would work together with the people. But Israel is controlled by religious zealots and until Israel reject the intolerance of religion in their politics it's relationship with neighbors of other religions will remain strained.

Michael. why don't you tell me a name of a relative of your that used to live there before your family justified moving to palestine. if you used to be there for 3000 years , you must have some relative. why don't you give one name. but you will not because you are german and you cliam palestine is your land. how does that work. and let us just assume that what you say is true. what about the other people who used to live there. instead of reading wikibidia, please read your book, the old testament and it will tell you that you are a guest in palestine, your are an align. is your book not saying the truth too. how can you be born in germany and never seen or known the middle east  but you claim that it is your land.

you said israel is pro truth but it was build on a lie , zionest claimed that palestine is a land without people and we are people without land but the whole world know now that it is a lie.

pro democracy but you have no rights for black jews and you treat them as a third class jews. you treat ashkinase ( the white ) as the elite and you treat saphardine as crap. you have jewish only roads. you do not even acnowlde arab villeges in israel , the arab israeili from 48.

pro.

i want to know , what is GDP has anything to do with steeling someone elses land. so for example america is the most powerfull nation on earth with a great econolmy, does that mean we can take over israel and make it our 52nd state. what you are saying has nothing to do with steeling the land from the palestinane.

A brief history of the ME.
Israelis have lived in the ME continously for over 3,000 years.
King Solomon reigned for over 300 years, then jews lived under Babylonian, Persian, Hellenistic, Maccabees ruled for over a century, Romans, Byzantines, Islamic for over 400 years, Christian crusades, Mamalukes, Ottomans, British and now Israel, out of the last 3,000 years Islam ruled for only 15% of the time, so what gives Muslims any right to any land? Muslims historicaly have no more right than Israelis to any part of the ME. Source Wikipedia.

Wael, first of all what makes you think I am German, the Nazis killed Jews all over Europe, my granparents could have been Austrian, Polish, French,  from anywhere in Europe, the Nazis killed anyone that opposed them. I happened to be born in England. My Israeli wife's father's family has lived continously in Israel for over 200 years, his family is Hassin originally from Syria.
Please stop these invented lies and hate, lets talk peace. In fact the Israeli Arabs have more freedom then any other Arabs in the ME, they vote, have freedom of assembly, have their own newspaper and are members of the Israeli parlament, and they prefer to live in Israel over any Arab country, ask them.

Ah, Michael Ross, you are young.

Your facts mean nothing when it comes to the discussion of "What does it mean to be Pro-Israel."

Citing the CONSERVATIVE U.K. publication, The Economist with a selective laundry list is proof of nothing. I noticed you left the USA and CHINA off of your list of countries that endorse and utilize Capital Punishment; in the USA they have executed a mentally disabled man with the I.Q. of an eight-year-old, the force fed anti-psychotics to a paranoid and delusional Schizophrenic so that he was "mentally capable" of being assassinated.

You fail to mention *HOW* Israel has such a vaunted (in your implications) GDP. How about their use of USA armament funding to develop "new technologies" and the fact that Israel is one of the largest arms dealers on the globe.

The whole term "semite" does not belong to those of Jewish religion or through the Maternal birth line. Semites include Arabs, Phoenicians and Assyrians and Jews. The term "anti-semite" is invalid in its current use; how can you be anti-Jewish and anti-Arab at the same time? Impossible.

Pro-Israel is to recognize its existence. It also means forced compliance with UN Sanctions and Security Council Rulings; not just a "Cafeteria Zionist State."

What a specious arguement to state, "The Arabs have lots of land, they should be taking in Palestinians." How is that rational?

Repatriation of Jewish-owned art stolen by the Nazi's and now in the hands of unwitting collectors and the repatriation of funds in Swiss Banks show that the world is will to acknowledge and assist the Jewish people in returning family treasures and fortunes.

What can be said about the Palestinian family who owns the deed fo a house that they have been removed from and view, often on a daily basis with "inhabitants" that occupy it in a way no different from those who unwittingly owned Jewish art pieces.

The common ground should be the The UN and if necessary, The international Rights Court in The Hague.

When the State of Israel has IDF soldiers refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories due to the belief that it is immoral, as the land does not belong to Israel, then it is time to begin *seeing* what the Jews are saying, not the rabid Zionists who are, for the most part, American and Canadian Jews who want to perpetuate Herzl's dream of a pure "Judenstaat," which is no different than Hitler's dream of a pure "Aryan Nation."

As noted Harvard Jewish Scholar, Norman Finkelstein states:
"The victim is always morally superior."

Israel is no longer a victim. It is an independent state with international obligations, one of which is upholding the UN's Charter of Human Rights, unless it wants to lose its seat at the Security Council, the ruminations amongst all the members are that Israel must work toward justice based upon common ground and the 1947 boundaries renegotiation.

Michael

muslim , christians and jews lived side be side for thousand of years. in 1947 there was about 80% muslims, 14% christians and 6% Jews and they never had a problem. muslims were the majority and they respected every one else and lived with them in peace. the only ones that never torute or burn Jews are the muslims. but when other jews from urbe start immgrating to palestine , killing and burning anyone who is not Jewish, then problem started. so to say only muslim used to live there is a another lie. you know you said you lived under the muslim for 400 years, that is not true , you lived under the muslim for 1500 years - 75 years under the crusades who by the way also murder you.

Romona, I would not put any faith in the UN of today, for example:
The UN Human Rights Council, like its predecessor the UN Human Rights Commission, has been criticised by mainly Western countries for focusing too much on Israel.[20] By April 2007, the Council had passed nine resolutions condemning Israel, the only country which it had specifically condemned.[21][22] By comparison, toward Sudan, a country with severe human rights abuses in Darfur as documented by the Council's work groups, it has only expressed "deep concern."[21] source Wikipedia.

By the way I am 65 years old.

Micheal by your accertions the the United States should return my ancestors land to the Cheokee.
Titus drove the jews from that land in 71 CE. So it has not been their land for over 2000 years.
But you are rught you and I can not have a discussion because your mind is made up.
Israels claim to the land is based on religion and religion is a curse to the world.

Daniel, Israel is a secular country, with 15% religous people, I myself am an Atheist. Israels claim to land is based on the rule of law, period. When a country is attacked, ie the attacker decides to decide the outcome of the attack on a fight to the death and not on a discussion, then they have to accept the consequences of that act. That is international law. In every war in history the loser must accept the terms of the winner,WWII, WWI are examples of that Japan attacked the US and then surrended and accpted the US terms. The only exception are the Israeli-Arab wars, all lost by the Arabs, and they do not accept the consequences of the criminal attacks on Israel.

Hmm, let us look at today’s news: 11 Palestinian missiles, 6 Grad rockets injure 23 civilians in Israel. That is what happens when you give territory back, so Is Israel suicidal? I think not. Please get off your naiveté, the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza voted for Hamas, whose prime objective is to eliminate Israel. With the help of Iran, they now believe this objective is in reach. They are repeating the mistakes of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq, when will they learn that Israel is the fifth world nuclear power, according to Jane’s, and as such undefeatable, so lets get real and talk peace, and stop firing rockets that will achieve absolutely nothing but the death of innocent children. Talk to Hamas and Iran first if you want peace, please.

Daniel, the Arab-Israeli war has nothing to do with religion, nothing to do with territory, you are influenced by Arab propaganda. The only reason the Arab states are at war with Isreal is because DICTATORS NEED A WAR IN ORDER TO DICTATE. So we either get rid of the dictators in the Arab world or give them a better reason to dictate than to blame Israel for all their faults. We will not have peace in the middle east until one of these two conditions happen. Everything else is wishfull thinking based on false premises instigated by the same Arab dictators that want to prolong this war for as long as they are in power. Sorry Daniel but that is the sad truth, we must be realistic.

the only thing that is making israel great and alive are arab dictator. these are the ones you call friends , like the king of jordan , morocco, and egypt. these are the one that makes israel alive. you said arafat was the problem and when died you said hamas is the problem. this is a never ending lame excuse. you can not even make peace with the guy you hired mahmoud abbas. the only reason there is a war between the arabs and the israelis is because the Zionest stole the arab's land used religon just like daniel said to steel the land. get it man. if i am palestinan that own home now, i will not be able to go back to my home but an asturalin jew who never been to israel can come and take my home for free. but if i convert to judaism then i might have a chance to get my home back. this is the sad truth. there is no arab propaganda about this. besides arabs do not own a single media place in america or un urbe , it is all jewish media. god bless robert merduth

Michael. My people the Cherokee were never at war with the United States of America. We were driven off our land like the Palestinians were by Israel. The fact that the UN has condemned Israel for it's numerous human rights violations speaks volumes. The United should also condemn their inhuman acts.  Israel's claim to that land is predicated on breaking the agreement on which they were allowed to settle.
If you want to do history the nation of Israel from the 12 tribes of Jacob split and the Jews represent only two of those tribes. Even less than that because the majority of the Jews did not return after freed by Persia.
Support for Israel should never include accepting their crimes against humanity. In doing so we are complacent in those crimes.

Israels troubles are of their own making. They need to make peace with the region. Their refusal to recognize the rights of the Palestinians is unacceptable. I call on all citizens of the United States to write our Representatives to condemn Israels aggression. We need to place economic sanctions on them and cease to sell them weapons. Israel must be deprived of nuclear weapons as much as Iran. Both offer the same threat to the world.

Daniel, your analogy does not hold water, if anything the Jews were deprived of their homeland Israel for thousands of years, just like the Cherokee. The difference being, the Jews were given part of the state of Palestine as a homeland by the international organization of nations, the UN. They named it Israel after the historical Israel and now live there, the rest is history, you can read it on Wikipedia.

But guys/gals, with your permission Charles, we need to set rules to this discussion:1. All facts most come from a reputable source, no propaganda.2. We must decide what law applies, the rule of law or the rule of the gun, you can't have it both ways.3. No personal attacks, this is a rational discussion on how to achieve peace in the ME.

Michael Ross, I am SHOCKED at your perception of reality. Completely shocked.  All that you say is completely the oposite of what I have learned and was taught.  Clearly it is the same for more of the people who are posting here too.

Noone means to or wants to be anit-Israel. But, the facts of history are the facts and Israel is NOT the underdog.  It is time for the inhabitors of the land of Israel to do right by the Palestinian people. Period.  End of story.

Michael,
  You cannot dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as blindly swallowing, and regurgitating propaganda. You are spouting propaganda as well. And not to rehash yet again, but can't you understand why Arabs don't love the idea of an "international organization" to which none of them belonged to, deciding that Israel should be gifted this land?

You say we must decide which rules apply, but you have stated that BOTH the rule of law and the rule of the gun apply. Because Israel won the wars and hence deserves the spoils of those wars, doesn't make it right.

Here, here Anthony. Well said.

I've never blogged before, maybe it's obvious. But, I'd like to ask a question that isn't related to this topic. As an American, Anglo-Saxon with a Syrian step-father, I would like to know what it means to  you on here that Barack Obama chose Rahm Emanuel as his Chief of Staff?  That seems pretty pro-Israel to me.  I read that Mr.Emanuel's father is Zionist Jew.  I would like to know people's views for what this means for the Palestinian cause.

Anthony,
If you read my last blog, I stated that you must decide what applies, not both either the rule of law or the rule of the gun, that you can't have it both ways.
It is obvious that you (the Arab world) have chosen the rule of the gun, fine. The rule of the gun states to the victor the spoils, so lets proceed with this logic, agreed. Throughout history disputes between nations have been settled by war (the rule of the gun). But their are rules here also, for example the Geneva convention, for conduct during war.

ARe you really so blind?  Are the Arabs the only ones who used force?  Guns?  Answer just this question Michael Ross.

Are the Arabs the ONLY ones who have used guns, or force?

Throughout history, the strong have preferred to settle disputes on the basis of who has more power, while the weak have tried to use the law. But if you are so weak that the law appears distant - you resort to violence again. And if you are strong and think that you can bend the law to your will - you use legal instruments to get what you want.

At the current moment, Palestinians and Arab states prefer the mechanisms of international law - but this was not the original choice in 1947-9. Right now, some Israelis prefers to rest on its military might ("we won, so it is ours") but this appraoch denies them long term stability. In the end, a compromise will have to be found. It will be based on law, and it will take into account the relative strengths of each party. But it will not be just one or the other.

Michael,
I'm not part of the Arab world. You should think about your assumptions about people who oppose your ideas, and how that informs your distorted world view.

Charles, your entry is well put, but Israel needs to be more pro-active about achieving peace.

KAL, I have not stated that the Arabs are the only ones using force in this dispute, all I have said is that pick one or the other, guns or law.

Charles, you make a good point as usual when you enter the debate, and I think you are right, in the real world it is a mixture of both.

So lets agree that this debate is about Peace and how to achieve it, and invite any ideas to this respect. Thanks for all the contributors, lets try and stay on track now. Michael

Charles,
>>>
Throughout history, the strong have preferred to settle disputes on the basis of who has more power, while the weak have tried to use the law. But if you are so weak that the law appears distant - you resort to violence again. And if you are strong and think that you can bend the law to your will - you use legal instruments to get what you want.which killed over 90 IDF forces for two kidnap victims who may have been released by Hezbollah (despised in Lebanon for running an illegal "concurrent government) had the destruction and violence against innocent Lebanese, the Red Cross [attacking  a Red Cross Convoy given "permission" to remove women, children and the ill from the area] and also attacking a UN Security Outpost [Killing a Canadian UNIFL (United Nations Intermediary Force in Lebanon)official] and with this violence they lose much of their political and "humanity" currency to deal effectively with individual nations and inform individual citizens about the "desire for peace."

The idea that Ben-Gurion "fought off attacking Arab Nations" is ludicrous; the Arab Nations had, as fact, surrounded the OFFICIAL borders of the State of Israel in an attempt to control the rapid spreading of "settlements" (another fine example of, "We are here so it is OURS!). Ben-Gurion didn't know that his "pre-emptive strike" would, close to 60-years later, be called the "Bush Doctrine."

Arab Nations are no longer attacking the State of Israel, terrorist organizations are and the question of where their financing comes from is in question. Israel's superior Guidance System Missals from the USA cannot beat the equivalent of a "potato launcher" in the hands of religious zealots opposed to the ceding of more via more land settlements by Zionists; the religious zealots of the honorable Jewish faith.

I read the Jewish World Review and what saddens me most is the editor placing a derogatory "a member of that religion of peace. . ." behind items listed in "This date in history," if the name is Arabic. To what purpose does that serve? Is that a desire for peacemaking?

Sadly, the Jewish World Review does not see how damaging to a peaceful resolution to the violence perpetrated against and by the State of Israel.


K.A.L.

>>>>I would like to know what it means to  you on here that Barack Obama chose Rahm Emanuel as his Chief of Staff?  That seems pretty pro-Israel to me.  I read that Mr.Emanuel's father is Zionist Jew.  I would like to know people's views for what this means for the Palestinian cause.<<<<

While it is true that Rahm Emanuel's Father was a member of the Zionist group, Irgun, a stridently Militant precursor to the IDF, Emanuel does not appear to hold these beliefs.

He states that one of his proudest moments was watching the signing of the Oslo Accords  between Yassir Arafat, PLO leader and Yitzach Rabin in the Rose Garden in 1993. (This rational approach to peace-making resulted in an ardently zealot Zionist assassinating Rabin at a Peace Rally on November 4, 1995).

I believe he was chosen to keep the Democratic Congress "on message" with the ideals of Barack Obama's Presidency. He is known to have "called out" against the settlements and standing against them, he will, I believe, be able to negotiate Obama's policies within both Congressional Branches as well as bring discipline to, oft unwilling, party partisans.

Yes, it does strike a "nice optic" for the United States Jewish Community, however, I believe it is his ability to manage effectively that was the chief reason for Obama's choice of Emanuel as Chief of Staff.

Zionist zealots will soon learn whether they have, what they deem, friend or foe in Emanuel. The Oath of Office has yet to be taken by President-elect Obama, so all is idle speculation, based upon past performance, until the process is in the hands of the new President.

The selection of Rahm Emanuel, for the Palestinians, means he will hold "feet to the fire" of those who support continued Zionist settlements on land agreed upon as Palestinian.

Michael Ross,
In an effort to keep the dialogue focused on peace, I have one question for you.  Please resist your urge to deny the plausibility of this hypothetical scenario.

Is it remotely possible that Israel could remove itself from lands occupied after the '67 war, if its action was simultaneously met with a unified dismantling of all violent resistance activities by Hamas (and any other "splinter" groups within Gaza or the West Bank areas)?

Bud good question, This offer was given to Arafat several times, and always met with more violence and terror from the Palestinians. Israel has always extended a hand for peace. But like I said earlier the Palestinians are just pawns in a larger game run by the financing of terror organizations like Hamas and Hizbellah by Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia. So until those dictatorships cease funding terror I do not see peace. They will always be gunslingers for hire that will disrupt the peace efforts, for as long as their are countries interested in this war. On the other end the Palestinians have to stop teaching their children to hate Jews and Israelis, they are just creating the next generation fo terrorists.

Romona, I would worry about Syria amassing forces along the Lebanese borders, Hezbollah with 40,000 rockets aimed at Israel, Hamas receiving daily weapons from Iran, Iran launching a new solid state rocket that can reach Israel and carry a nuclear payload, preparing for their next assault on Israel, rather then Rahm Emanuel, the next chief of staff, who will be running the 1,000 staff of the white house and not Obama's policy towards the ME, if I were you.

Michael Ross?

You need to sharpen your reading comprehension skills. I was answering a question posited by another poster.

I am leaving the forum. Mr. Ross seems to like to see his name in print, regardless of whether he is spewing propaganda or depositing laundry lists of facts; persona non grata.

Michael, Michael, Michael!

I was hoping to make some progress.  "Bud, good question"

Thanks for the evaluation, but you didn't answer my question!Before I respond to the details of your response, let me keep this at a higher altitude.  I'm trying to disengage from the past, otherwise we fall into a never ending "he said, she said" circle.  Forget about what Arafat said in the past - He's dead!

My question dealt with the present.  As things now stand:

"Is it remotely possible that Israel could remove itself from lands occupied after the '67 war, if its action was simultaneously met with a unified dismantling of all violent resistance activities by Hamas (and any other "splinter" groups within Gaza or the West Bank areas)?"

I honestly and sincerely want to know where you stand.  You're an intelligent person with a lot more experience and knowledge of the Middle East experience and history than me.  You've been through a lot, and I feel that you represent the mainstream Israeli sentiment.  I'm dead serious about this.  If you really feel there is no way that Israel (government or people or both) would ever consider withdrawing to the pre-67 border, regardless of the prospect for lasting peace that this may bring, then there's no point in negotiating down this trail.  I'm not going to waste time formulating compromise scenarios if the Israeli sentiment is diametrically opposed to a settlement, which requires a withdrawal from the West Bank areas.

Since you did not address my question, I'm not encouraged.

Now, to the details of your response:  We all need to be very careful when we make statements about what offers were given to Arafat.  And, I'm the first to admit that I know very little about what was offered.  I do know that there is an awful lot of (mis?)information about this on the web.  Here's my current, uneducated impression:  In Olso II, Sept 1995, Arafat was shown (at the "11th hour" of the negotiations) a proposed map of the Palestine nation, which apparently looked like a swiss cheese map of non-contiguous "reservations".  (see "Lessons from the Swiss Cheese Map" by Shari Motro - Legal Affairs Magazine September/October 2005 issue.)  "Arafat glared at [the map] in silence, then sprang out of his chair and declared it to be an insufferable humiliation"  ""These are cantos!  You want me to accept cantons!  You want to destroy me"". 

Now, if you know something different, PLEASE direct me, and others, to a web site link that shows the actual map, which was presented to Arafat at the Oslo II meeting. 

Then, in Dec 2000, the "Clinton negotiations" centered around a map that contained a fairly contiguous map of a Palestine nation, with the glaring exception that Jerusalem was completely within Israeli territory.  Wikipedia states that the map showed land given by Israel, representing 100% of Gaza and 73% of the West Bank, increasing to 90% over a period of 10 to 20 years. 
The same map on www.zionism-israel.com/maps/Ross_MAP_Palestinians.htm shows a Palestinian state in 95% of the West Bank and 100% in Gaza.  I'm not sure which is correct, but regardless, Arafat rejected the offer, saying, ""the Arab leader who would surrender Jerusalem is not born yet".  This was a tragic mistake.  A smarter negotiator would have lobbied for a formal tabling of the Jerusalem issue to at least capitalize on a Palestinian nation settlement.  I personally believe that an "internationally governed" Jerusalem would be in the best interests of all.  But, it would be much easier to negotiate this with Israel, after demonstrating a peaceful transition to Palestinian nationhood.

Finally, you warn that Palestinians should stop teaching its children to hate Israel.  I agree with you.  I happen to live in the Maine, which is the home of "Seeds for Peace", a camp which brings children from all areas of the Middle East together.  However, I would equally caution that Israel refrain from teaching its children that their homeland stretches from the Mediterranean to the Jordan river.  Please note, the map of Israel used in school textbooks:  www.science.co.il/Israel-Neighbors-map.asp.  There is absolutely no mention that any of this land is occupied or even remotely under dispute.

Michael, the motivation for the time I've put into this discourse, is the hope that we can prove something.  I feel that you represent the center or "center-right" of Israeli sentiment.  You certainly don't seem to be a radical Jewish peace activist (whatever that is!).  And, I won't disguise the fact that I support a final resolution of Palestinian statehood and refugee settlement.  The challenge is whether the two of us, symbolic of fundamentally different viewpoints, can find a solution, which still serves the security interests of Israel.  If two ordinary citizens like us can find common ground, maybe there is hope in the larger political arena for a final, satisfactory settlement.

Let me tell you what was offered to arafat because israeli propganda made it sound that they gave the palestinane the deal of the centruy. israeli propaganda depended on one thing and one thing only, that if you keep repeating the same lie again and again , then people will start to beleive it and then it becomes the truth. i believe Mr. Ross is using the same method.

here is what was offered to arafat.

1) Gaza strip and the west bank which are 2 isolated ireas divided in the middle be the state of israel so if you need to drive from gaza to the west bank, then you need a visa.

2) the west bank and gaza is only 18% of the historical palestine before 1848.

3) it gets better , all the jewish satelment in the west bank and gaza will stay which is about 10% of the 18%, the problem is these satlement will divid the west bank into many peaces all divided, so if you want to go to school in the mornning, then you have to go around the satelemnt and trave for few hours just to go to work or school or even visit a friend.

4) it gets even better, Jerwslam will be all gived the the jews.

5) there will be no right of return to the palestinian who has been living in refuge camps after the jews stole their houses in 1948.

i am not even going to continue because i think this is enoiugh for every one to know what a great deal it was. Arafat told them that if i go back to my people and tell them some of that i will be murdered.

the onlt person that was willing to make real peace was rabin may he rest in peace. and the arab accepted it but he was murdered by an israeli and the new goverment said that we have nothing to do with rabin deal and we have to start all over again.

finnally , they kept saying arafat is the problem and that we need a real partner to make peace, guess what, arafat died and they hired thier own guy, mahmoud abbas but still no peace.

these people do not want peace and they will never accept peace. they want it all.

he has all his facts twisted some how, he attacks lebanon , kills thousand of people  and arrive to beruit and kill 40 thousand lebanise then he calls Hesbolla a teroriest group for defending their, last time i checed israeli were in lebanon but hesbolla never been to israel. 

Bud, I really appreciate your seriousness, you are correct with your assesment of our viewpoints. I will get back to you with a well thought out answer, thank you very much, you are elevating the conversation to a level I had hoped we could reach, Michael.

Bud, Bud, Bud,

I appreciate your desire to reach a possible solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem. In my humble opinion it is entirely possible for Israel to give parts of the West Bank to the Palestinians, never all of it, but close to 90% of it and to compensate for the other 10% with other land so the total land area would be the same, so a kind of swap. In return Israel would need a partner to this Peace, a partner that would be a real government with a 100% monopoly on lethal weapons, a real commitment to real peace, like between European countries, and to dismantle  all splinter groups, no military would be allowed, just a police force.

Romona Duchene, good riddance, we do not need arrogant know it all people on this conversation. Any one has the right to respond to anyone's message.

Michael,

Thanks for your answer. I agree that 90% would be the maximum amount, realistically given back. I would go a step further and weave a final refugee settlement into the agreement.

If Israel were to walk away from all but 10% of the WB, there would suddenly be un-deeded property available. I believe Israel would be justified by asking for a final compromise on the entire refugee issue. This compromise would have to include actions by ALL countries currently holding refugees. Permanent locations must be found for all, and they obviously can't all re-settle in the WB.

The neighboring countries must also provide permanent residency, and the bill for all of this (land given up, relocation expenses, direct compensation, etc) should come from a fund contributed by all affected countries, including countries outside of the Middle East. Most of the world would benefit by a Middle East region, suddenly changed - peaceful and prosperous. It would truly be an investment for the future, to which most countries would be encouraged to contribute.

It's vital that the countries, currently maintaining refugees like Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, cooperate by assuming their fair share of the responsibility, both in compensation and in the offer of permanent status outside of refugee camps.

The temptation is to segregate this issue, so that it does not bring the Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement to a halt. But, I maintain that, if Israel is going to take the initiative to re-draw the boundaries, then the other countries must sign-on to an acceptable refugee solution. This cannot continue to smolder as an unresolved issue after the transfer of WB land.

If you feel that mainstream Israel would ultimately consider this scenario, then I am encouraged.

Bud

I do not understand how can you have country inside a country. if you keep the 10% Illegal israei satelment dividing your own villege into 2 peaces with road blocks, how can you live like that. Imaging you live in los angeles but if you want to go to work i nthe morning , then you have to drive around to santa barbra first the come back so you can go to work in the morning. but how about if you get sick and you want to go the doctor that is 10 blocks away, it will take you 4 hours to go to the doctor. you call this a solution?

the reason for this is that israel is worried to give them a whole country so they do not unit and prosper. this is only 18% of their own land and still israeli think it is too much.

there is no solution for this problem, the only solution is to keep the status que untill the time comes and the arabs take  their land back. i wish there is a different solution but there is not.

the zionest will never let go. this is not the first time by the way. the crusades were in the same place for 75 years for the same exact claim and they did not give up any part untill the arabs took it back. israel is only been there for 55 years.

israel is crying about iran and the fact that iran gives arms to their allies but he forgot that he has atomic power from the U.S.

the arab world will catch up when they get red if their dectators , only then israel will set down and give up what they stole. history showed us that israel only give up what they stole when they lost the way, that is the only language they understand. this happened in 1973 when they returned sinaie and in the 80th when they lost in lebanon and fom gaza when they lost, that is their language. when that happen , i am sure Mr ross will be happy because he thinks the powerfull and the one with most GDP and noble price should dominate.

I hope some israeli moderate with loud voice that can be a partner for a true peace but as long as the right wing zionest are in power, you can gorget about it.

Bud, the key to a solution that both sides will buy into is: 1. A true peace, whereas the Palestinian education system changes from teaching to hate Israel to teaching that Israel is a partner and a friend. 2. That the refugees be taken care of by Arab countries and not Israel, Israel has taken in millions of Jewish refugees that resulted from them being banished from Europe and Arab countries. If they want peace they have to show it with deeds not only words of peace in exchange for land, otherwise we will have a repeat of the Gaza disaster.

Bud, 3. The ME countries you have mentioned should include Iran, without Iran and Syria stopping the funding of Hamas and Hezbollah any peace will be short lived. 4. In order for the Arabs living in the WB to become a true "people" they must develop a culture of their own, besides hate for Israel, and I do not know if that is possible.

The Palestinian entity is an artificial one created for the sole purpose of getting rid of Israel, you must keep that in mind. In order to have a genuine peace, which I understand some of the WB Arab population aspire to, the culture of hate has to be dealt with first.

Bud, 5. If you checkout any of the Palestinian websites you will find that their picture of Palestine is different then yours and mine, they picture Palestine as all of Israel. The strategy is that of a Trojan horse, get a Palestinian state in the midst of Israel, then launch attacks from there into the heart of Israel. So if Israel knowingly agrees to the entry of a Trojan horse in to the midst of it, thousands of precautions have to be taken.

first of all the only culture that teach hate is the Israeli culture.

1) In Israel they say a good Arab is a dead Arab!! i am right? i m sure you hear that in Israel all the time.

2) why did Jewish solders took 200 old plaestinain men and women in a bus  from the village of tiaba in 1948 and told them they will move them to a safe place and when they they asked for water they gave them gas instead and burn them alive. what did these people do to be burned alive.

2) you have a green light in the old testament second book of Exodus to kill all Palestinian include women and children, how ever you should keep only the virgins for yourselves. that is what god ordered you to do in your book. Please correct me if i am wrong, please if am lying tell every one that i m making this up.

3) it also ask you in the book of Geniuses first book in the old testament to steel all the jewelry and pots from the Egyptians before you leave because they are gentile ( gentile mean dirty and filthy dog and that goes for all non Jews) again please correct me if i m wrong.

4) Palestinians do not need to teach their kids hate. all they have to do is wake up in the morning and see what happens to them and their families by the Israeli

5) you are saying Jews were kicked out of Arab countries, how come there are Jews living in Morocco , Tunis , Yemen and Iran today as we speaking.

6) why did the Egyptian Jews burn down town Cairo in the 60th killing hundreds of other Egyptians  to help Israel.

7) for what reason the Israeli pilots destroy the U.S navel ship in the 70th killing tens of Americans pretending they are Egyptian planes and finally they were caught.

8) why did the Israeli took patriot missile from the U.S then went around and sold it to their enemy china even though the U.S is a great friend.

9) only in the last 7 years more American Jews spy ed on  the u.s even though they are Americans.

10) why did German Jews betrayed their country Germany in world war one.

it is all for one reason and one reason only. most of the Jews loyalty are to Israel and Israel only, they hate anything else that is not Jewish, so do not twist the facts and say that the Palestinians teach their kids hate. you do not need a reason to hate someone who stole you land , took away you house , killed you father and rapped you sister.

Mr. Ross please do not get blind sided about the painful truth and what you have cosed these poor victims just because you are Jewish. tell other Israeli to give up the west bank and Gaza, give the poor victims the right of return and give them back Jerusalem

Wael, enough of this nonsense, we are trying to establish a way to peace. I will not even give you the respect of an answer to these falsehoods, your ten points of BS. please find another website to spew you hatred, you are not welcome in this debate.

that is what you are good at, accuse people of hate. character assainate individuals, calling them haters , ant-semitic , jew haters and all this nonnsense that you make up to scare people off. tell me what i lyed about so i can copy paste to you from the old testement or from U.S sources what i am saying. i will give you the page number and the line number. jut tell me where did i lie.

stop accusing others of teaching hate because you have no prove. for me i have a prove and i am quoting to you from you book. and all you can say that i am not welcome here. Well you are not welcome in palestine. if you leave palestine, i promise you i will leave this blog but untill you stop repeating these israeili propaganda that you are using , i well keep answering you from you book and from your soruces. this is not fox news where you can make crap up and boor americans belives it. in here we will be hold for every word you say and you will find a good response

Mr ross , saying i am not welcome in this blog proves that you can not answer, you can not face the truth , i did not insult you or anyone else , i did not use any word that is out of line because i do not need to. i have the logic and the truth on my side.

you want a true peace, give back the west bank and gaza, all of it.

give back the right of return to all the refugee and return jerosalam. that is how you make real peace, that is how the palestinans forget about what you did and live side by side in peace , a real peace . but you will never do that , you know why, cose you think there are using the trojan horse, you will never trust them cose you know you stole something that is not yours, it is like steeling a laptop from you roommate, you will always go to sleep huging the laptop cose u know if you leave it your roommate will take it back.

i do not need you welcome by the way but it shows me that you can not answer and you are feeling the heat and you are out of argument. your propaganda is not working. i suggest you stick with fox news , becuase the online community is was more educated that fox news crowd

All the more reason to keep our eyes pointed forward, to building a negotiated path to achievable peace.  Looking back in an effort to prove who is morally "right" or "wrong" will only degrade to circular name calling.  Israel is here, the desire for a viable, contiguous Palestinian nation is here, and displaced people, labeled as Palestinian refugees are here, too - living in several different countries and regions. Let's start with these three realities and see if people with different backgrounds, experiences, and opinions can work towards a mutually acceptable goal of peace and prosperity.  A little prosperity with opportunities for employment can go a long way towards diminishing hatred.

i like that. this is what the Arab in the westbank want.

1) they will give up 82% of historical Palestine to the Jewish people and recognise the state of Israel.

2) they want the west bank and Gaza to be a Palestinian state that recognized by Israel and the rest of the world.

3) they want to give the right of return to all these refugees all over the place.

4) they want Jerusalem as the capital of their new country.

and finally , i think the international community should help them get their economy and infrastructure back on track to eliminate poverty and extremism. eliminate the fire that creates terrorism and insecurity all over the world.

Arabs will live in peace next to Israel , work together , get to know each others as cousins because Jews and Muslims are cousins. only then i think a true loving peace will be in place all over the world. terrorist organizations will diminish and disappear.
that is my 2cents

Michael, Israel withdrew from most of the Gaza Strip, but still exercises authority as an occupier. It does this by controlling all the borders - sea, air and land.

I think the Israeli security mentality wants two things that are not compatible. The first, is the authority and control to stop all violent attacks. The second, is the end of hostilities. The two won't work together.

Peace is connected to justice, and until the Palestinians have complete independence from Israel (including boundaries) then violence will probably continue.

What this means from a policy perspective, is that Israel needs to accept that ending the occupation still has a cost. It's less than the cost of continuing it, but it still costs. And these costs will, at first, but less than the benefits. But over time, the costs will go down, and the benefits will go up.

Of course, this requires that the Palestinians have faith that Israel will not go back on it's word and attempt to exert dominance and control over the Palestinian state. This has been a repeated problem....

As long as Israel sees it's security as linked to domination over the Palestinian people (in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and within Israel) then it will not have security or Democracy. This is a case where you don't get your cake and the right to eat it.

Some Arabs have shown that they are serious about peace. They do this be inviting Israel to sign a peace agreement on the basis of a two state solution. The ball is in Israel's court to end the occupation and allow for such a solution to emerge, by agreement.

It is unlikely that there will be peace until after an agreement is signed and implemented with international supervision.

So Charles, how come Italy, Turkey, Greece and the Vatican do not claim the parcel of land called the WB, they all ruled it at one point in time, what makes the current occupants so special? They were given the land by the UN in 1948, but said no, they wanted it all, and if they had won the war of 1948, there would be no Israel today and no one would have come to the aid of Israel. Having lost that war, they must now as every country that started a war throughout history, suffer the consequences of that loss, period. So lets start from that point of view. There are no occupiers, Israel owes the Palestinians nothing, and if they want peace they must first disarm and stop the terror.

"What makes the current occupants so special?"
Are you insane? They aren't special. They get the same rights as most other nations of the world - the right to be free and independent.

And who is this 'they' business? Very few Palestinians alive today had any opinion whatsoever in 1948. I want peace with the Israelis and Palestinians of 2008.

I'm close to deciding that you are a troll, so watch it.

Michael, you are absolutely killing this conversation. Have some respect for the others by conversing, not opening a firehose on all of us, and especially the blogger Charles, who has been nothing but fair and understanding of all sides of the discussion, until they become obviously prejudice. It is becoming clear that you lump Arabs from all lands in a "them" category, and have no desire for achievign clarity on this issue by attempting, though it may be difficult, to see it from the point of view of all involved parties.
If you cannot do this, then GET YOUR OWN BLOG.

This thread might look strange after lots of posts by an impolite troll have been removed. The guy was warned, and he disregarded the warnings.

First I apologize if I have hurt anyones feelings, thats how we talk to each other in Israel. Second I will wear the badge of a troll with honor if that is what I get for speaking the truth.
Third, I think that we have started a real dialogue with Wael the Palestinian and I would like to contue that, Wael, are you ready?

Now you can see the nasty Israeli Troll, thats my three year old grandson sitting on my shoulder, you can see his legs.

I have read most of the posts here and decided to add a small comment. I write re web design's post of 11/16/08. Almost everything you say is incorrect. It ranges from vague inuendo to outright lies. I don't know where you got it, but it is completely at odds with what is published elsewhere.
You say: "first of all the only culture that teach hate is the Israeli culture." This is completely false. The Israeli culture is founded on love - love of one's self, others, and God.

1) In Israel they say a good Arab is a dead Arab!! i am right? i m sure you hear that in Israel all the time.

I suspect this saying is uttered by some, though I have never heard it, personally.

2) why did Jewish solders took 200 old plaestinain men and women in a bus  from the village of tiaba in 1948 and told them they will move them to a safe place and when they they asked for water they gave them gas instead and burn them alive. what did these people do to be burned alive.

1948? How would you or anyone else know what happened in an isolated incident in 1948. It is not in character with the Jewish people.

2) you have a green light in the old testament second book of Exodus to kill all Palestinian include women and children, how ever you should keep only the virgins for yourselves. that is what god ordered you to do in your book. Please correct me if i am wrong, please if am lying tell every one that i m making this up.

You are wrong about this. What Bible are reading?

3) it also ask you in the book of Geniuses first book in the old testament to steel all the jewelry and pots from the Egyptians before you leave because they are gentile ( gentile mean dirty and filthy dog and that goes for all non Jews) again please correct me if i m wrong.

Also wrong.

4) Palestinians do not need to teach their kids hate. all they have to do is wake up in the morning and see what happens to them and their families by the Israeli

Inuendo. No facts present. Vague.

5) you are saying Jews were kicked out of Arab countries, how come there are Jews living in Morocco , Tunis , Yemen and Iran today as we speaking.

It is physically impossible to kick out every singel person.

6) why did the Egyptian Jews burn down town Cairo in the 60th killing hundreds of other Egyptians  to help Israel.

They didn't. Again, distorted information. Not factual.

7) for what reason the Israeli pilots destroy the U.S navel ship in the 70th killing tens of Americans pretending they are Egyptian planes and finally they were caught.

Didn't happen.

8) why did the Israeli took patriot missile from the U.S then went around and sold it to their enemy china even though the U.S is a great friend.

Didn't happen.

9) only in the last 7 years more American Jews spied on the u.s even though they are Americans.

Nope.

10) why did German Jews betrayed their country Germany in world war one.

Jews answer to God, not necessarily to a ruler of a country. Sometimes they are in agreement - sometimes not.

it is all for one reason and one reason only. most of the Jews loyalty are to Israel and Israel only, they hate anything else that is not Jewish, so do not twist the facts and say that the Palestinians teach their kids hate. you do not need a reason to hate someone who stole you land, took away you house , killed you father and rapped you sister.

Jews didn't steal anyone's land. They took back what was theirs in the first place.

Thanks Steve.
Interestingly....
Israel did set off bombs in Cairo in the 60's. It was called 'the Lavon Affair.'
Israel did sink the Liberty, a U.S. spy ship, in 1967. There is a dispute over exactly what happened.
Some Jews were more or less pushed out of Arab countries +Iran. Others stayed. Some left of their own accord. It's quite mixed!
I grew up in Israel and heard 'a good Arab is a dead Arab' lots of times. I also saw lots of racist graffiti against Arabs on bus stops and walls across the country. Anyone who says Israelis don't hate is living in fantasy land. Of course, it's not all; most folks don't hate, or spray paint.
Finally, check on Youtube for some great examples of Palestinian hate. There's an episode of a Hamasnik Mickey Mouse being murdered by an Israeli secret service agent. Sad, but hysterical. And yes, kind of hateful.

To one and all,
I have read over all of the comments and decided to jump in very briefly. First I agree that reliable sources should be used when discussing historical facts, etc. Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source to use for facts. Colleges refuse to accept this source as it has a tendency to get the facts wrong more than just occasionally. Not trying to be nasty, just stating that it is an unacceptable site.

It seems as though no one has brought up the fact that Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs have DNA that shows they are from the same family, just 2 different branches. Scientific stuff, but fascinating, none the less. Someone brought up the 12 tribes, well it looks like the Palestinians are one branch of the family. Would that infer that they have been there just as long and in reality it is historically just as much their land.

Now, pro-Israel for many means never saying a word against the country for fear of being labeled anti-semetic. Personally, I feel that when the zionist chose to form a country they gave up a lot and have to be judged as any country would. Democracy infers that there is equality, which there isn't. I know that has already been brought up and I think it is valid. What about the right of return, which has been endorsed by the U.N.? Do we pick and choose what we want to hear from both sides or do we pick through the pieces and try to find a measure of fairness?

The United States needs to quite funding Israel and their nuclear program. This adds to the instability of the region and some Arab nations feel threatened by Israel's repeated calls for more of the land that surrounds them. It is there in the history books if you choose to look, and in government documents as well.

I think we need to figure out a way to be fair to both sides, not just one. Israel is a major force in the area and as such needs to be listened too, but the Arabs need to have their concerns addressed as well. Without doing this the radicals on both sides will continue to push for their own agendas.

Georgie, I disagree with your assumption that we have to be fair to both sides, that is correct if both sides are equal. Does the US have to be fair to Al Quaida? In the Israeli-Arab world conflict fair is not appropriate. If the world was fair, Israel would have been given by the UN a much larger portion of ancient Israel. How can we be fair to a group of people dedicated to eliminating Israel, Hamas and Iran. Iran supplies weapons and training to Hamas and Hizbellah. Hamas now controls Gaza, and have aspirations for the WB. So how do you suggest we be fair to them? Hand over the WB to them, so that they can send rockets on Tel-Aviv?

Michael,
I am not suggesting that fair requires us to unilaterally give up or do away with whatever upsets one side or the other. I am suggesting that there needs to be a common ground found that both sides can agree to. All Arabs need to accept that Israel has a right to exist above all else. Until that occurs we are at a point where nothing can really be accomplished without pressure being put on both parties, if necessary. The waste of human life on both sides is appalling, and frankly, I have no idea if the United States should walk away and let both sides duke it out or not. If not, how involved should the United States be? If so, then it may require us removing ourselves and support from the arena. The problem of what to do or not do is fraught with a million possibilities and none of them a sure bet. There are people on both sides who want peace, and for them, I hope that day comes sooner, rather than later.

Georgie, A majority of Israelis want peace, I promise you that, they would like nothing better than to live in peace with their neighbours, and develop the resources of the ME, in any sized territory. Israel accepted in 1948 a territory almost half the size of Israel today, and if the Arab Palestinians at that time had accepted the UN reolution they could have had a wonderful state of their own. But they chose war. They were greedy and wanted it all, they lost that war but tried again, many more times, each with the same result. Now Hamas controls Gaza as a result of US intervention, insisiting that Israel let them vote, they voted for Hamas, a terrorist organization dedicated with the help of Iran on eliminating Israel. So we are left to deal with Fatah, a more moderate organization, but if you check our Abas's resume, his hands are not so clean from anti-semitism. But still, Israel is willing to deal with him, knowing the snake that he is, with severe caution, lets see how that develops.

Charles, I am sorry to have ruffled your feathers, but you have to admit, it did stir up a lively conversation, nothing but a little controversy, eh?
Now to respond to your assertion below:

"Peace is connected to justice, and until the Palestinians have complete independence from Israel (including boundaries) then violence will probably continue..."

Prior to the 1967 war, the Palestinians did have complete independence from Israel, that did not stop them from joining Jordan, Syria and Egypt and attacking Israel, in 1967 and again in 1973. The violence in my opinion does not stem from injustice supposedly handed down to the Palestinians but due to the fact that Iran and Syria are dictatorships that need a war, and are funding the radical elements in the WB and Gaza, and until we put a stop to that or Abbas stops receiving money and arms from them, the incentive will be there to continue the war.

Michael and all,

This endless rehashing of history is not productive.  I think Charles is correct when he states that peace needs to be made between Israel and the Palestinians of 2008 -- the current occupants of the West Bank, many of whom have had families living in the same spot for generations.

Michael, what possible justification can there be for Israel to build a wall that slices through the West Bank (NOT on the internationally accepted border) separating Palestinians from their land, workplaces and schools?  Palestinian homes are routinely demolished for flimsy beaurocratic reasons (building permits are almost impossible for Palestinians to obtain), and the system of checkpoints is inhumane to put it mildly. Anyone needing documentation please check out the website of B'tselem, the Israeli human rights group:  http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp. These current inhabitants of the West Bank are not responsible for the errors of Arab states in the past century; why should they suffer?

I think if you take a serious look at what West Bank (and, yes, Gaza -- still under siege) Palestinians have to deal with on a daily basis (including the constant settlement building that's going on as we sit here having this debate), you would realize that Palestinians don't need to be taught hate for Israel in schools -- daily life will take care of that.

Harry, You have not suffered the loss of a friend or relative from a suicide bomber in your neighbourhood, thousands of Israelis have, as a result of the wall this has just about stopped, even though hundreds attempts are still made to infiltrate the barriers.
The Palestinians of 2008 have brought all of this upon themselves, do not pity them, they could have had a prosperous state many times over, Israel would love nothing more than to live in peace with its neighbors. If you harbor and produce terrorists, you have to suffer the consequences, what would the US do in such a case? What would any country do with almost daily terrorists killing its population, Israel's actions are benign in comparison to the rest of the world, Israel's military is one of the most human in history. The IDF (Israel Defense Forces) are just that DEFENSE forces, their mission is to defend and they go to great length to prevent civilian casualties, not so on the other side that have launched thousand of rockets on Israel with the intent of killing innocent women and children.

Here is an organization of bereaved Israeli and Palestinian parents:
http://www.theparentscircle.com/
They say very different things that you Ross.
Here's the thing: you seem to believe that becuase someone is an Israeli, lived through terror, and had people close to you die or be in danger, that this would mean that one kind of opinion is more correct than another.

I am an Israeli, I lived through the terror and the war, I lost friends, and yet I don't agree with you at all.

It reminds me of a senseless conversation with a friendly Jew who wanted to prove me wrong after a public talk. He said: well, of course you are a safe American, so your opinion isn't so valid.
- But I am Israeli.
But did you serve in the Army?
- yes, I did.
Ah, but what kind of military unit?

And so you see the insanity of this logic. At the end of the day, only those descended from holocaust victims, who live in Israel and serve in the army, preferably as an officer of a combat unit, only they can have a valid opinion. Unless.... as has happened, even folks like that turn around and embrace the pro-peae view, as happened with say, Avram Burg, former head of the Jewish Agency, minister, and speaker of the Knesset.

And what then Ross? On this forum (if nowhere else) who you are is very important. Kulani yecholim l'daber shtuyot po, lo rak atta.

Israel has harbored and produced terrorists, like the Kach movement, the Hebron settlers, the Hilltop Youth, the folks who bombed Professor Ze'ev Sternhall, the bombers of the King David, the murderer of Yitzhak Rabin, and the terrorists by land, sea and air who make normal Palestinian life impossible while Israelis attend clubs and buy stocks and exit start ups with huge profits.

Would you impose collective punishment on the family of Yigal Amir? The city of Yitzhak Shamir? The country of 'terror neged terror' who killed Palestinian mayors in the 80s?

Get a grip. Until you have been assaulted by crazed settlers in the West Bank as Israeli soldiers look on, laughing and smiling, you won't understand. Until you yourself are beaten senseless by a dozen cops after an unarmed demonstration. Until you spend a year transcribing into English the first hand testimonies of Palestinian prisoners tortured by the Israeli security forces. Until you visit the family of children blown up by Israeli tanks and missiles. Until then, you are a broken record spouting a party line, without a trace of humility or doubt.

You exemplify the very ugly face of Israel and rabid supporters of Israel for whom all is clear, cut and dried, no matter how many innocent Palestinians have to die, no matter how much land is stolen, how many trees cut down, how many children go to bed hungry, how many livelihood are ruined, and how many bright young Israelis leave that country behind, forever.

Charles, "Le kol matbeah shnei tsdadim" You can't ignore the last 60 years of history, I agree with you Israel has its own extremists, but Israel is ruled by law and Yigal Amir is in jail and the rest of the crazed settlers get punished. On the other hand I don't see the Palestinian Authority punishing their crazies, the opposite they support them. Who was dancing in the streets after 9/11 not Israelis, Palestinians. I and many more Israelis that share my view are absolutely ready to sit down with a responsible leader for the Palestinian people and talk peace. Put down the guns, arrest the terrorists and lets talk about getting along together.

Everybody, you are mixing figs and dates in this discussion. Israel is a modern western state run by a democratically elected government, were the rule of law applies. Yes Israel has murderers, rapists, terroroists and other criminals just like any other modern state, these people are prosecuted and dealt with with, with the full power of the law.

On the other hand we have the Palestinian people, that do not have the rule of law, a place were terrorists get away with murder of children every day, with an elected group of people dedicated in writing to the destruction of Israel.

So please do not mix figs and dates. It is has always been Israel's policy to spare innocent lives and Israeli soldiers have died following this policy. Palestinians are treated as equal in Israeli hospitals. On the other hand it is the Policy of the Palestinian leaders, Hamas, to murder as many Israelis as possible, rockets are raining down on Israeli women and children constantly.

Israel is still willing to talk peace regardless of Hamas's and Iran's intent to kill all and every Israeli they can. So lets not compare the two entities, one is a law abiding society, the other a yet to be defined entity. One a fig the other a date, not the same.

Michael

I never thought i will say this, but i give up. i really give up on debating with you. there is no reason to go any further because you will never be convinced, I do not even think your read others posts. i am out unless you say make something else up then i will have to answer you. like palestinianes celebrating on 9/11. the only ones that broadcast that was again, Fox news, and it has to be a brazilian profesor to find out that the celebration was in the 90s for a complete different reason but fox news broadcast it as it is 9/11 and when they got cought they said sorry we did not know.

now you know what an israeli propaganda means. i will leave you now, please do not make things up so i do not have to come again and answer you. may some super power help you see the truth one day.

Mr. Ross

I got this meesage from you but i do not see it in the plog.

.............
Wael, as they say if you can't stand the heat leave the kitchen.
It is true that Fox did show some footage not related, but that does not negate the fact that Palestinians were celebrating in the streets, not only when the US was hit, but also when children in Maalot were slaughtered, when Saddam sent rockets on Tel-Aviv during the Gulf war, and on and on, answer  me this, why do the Palestinians not stop the terrorists amongst you? Israel arrests Israeli terorists. Why did you elect Hamas as your leader if you want peace, these are all things the world recognizes, please tell me. I am not making things up, your own people shot a young Palestinian boy, then published it world wide as an Israeli kill, a recent investigation by the IDF has proof that this was a Palestinian kill for propaganda use, so please if you want to the truth than you must accept the hard facts of the abuse, and murder your people have reinged on innocent Israelis.
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Now Mr. Ross you really know how to get me back to the kitchen real fast. I will answer every single claim you made in here.

1) first of all , i am not palestinane and i do not even like some of the palestinanes. I am Just a guy who hates Injustice.

2) i am really glad that you have the courge that Fox new made up the fotage of palestinanes celebrating on the streets.

3) we have no prove except for you word that palestinane where celebrating but we have a prove that there was 4 israeli guys laughing and celebrating in a hotel right next to WTC and video taping the planes hitting the towers. they were arrested by the FBI becuase the hotel manager thought they were arabs celebrating.

4) let me tell you who kills children since you have a very short memory , remember the deer yasin masacre, remember sabra and shatila masacre , remember genin not long ago masacre, remember hiting elemintry scool in egypt call elbaker and killing all the kids on purpose. do u remember killing the egyptians war presoners by hooking them up to the ground then drive your tanks over them after the 67 war. by the way there is a law suit going on right now just for that, and there is another one for sabra and shatila , and they are both done by Ms sharoon.

so this is what you do with your teroorist , you make them pri minister, like sharoon and ben guriun who is also on england terorist list.

so israeli does not arrest israeli terroist, they make them pri ministers. 99% of your ITF ( israeli Terrorist force) the real name of the israeli army. are terrorist. and they good ones leaves or refuse to serve and they went to jail for that. you know who am i talking about.

4) why did the palestinane elect hamas. hmmmmmm, Mr. Ross, first of all hamas is your creation, israel created hamas to fight fatah, if it was not for israel , hamas would not have been there. the palestinain choose hammas becuase fatah was not able to bring them peace, you did not was fatah as a peace partner, now you telling me who they elected hamas , it is not like you let them do it anyway, you tubble down a democratic elected government, even more democratic then israeli election, but you did not like that. Here goes you democracy. you call for democracy when it only make sense to you, if you wanted peace, why did not you have peace with fatah? tell me .

5) you say that palestinanes are killing their own children for propaganda and according to the IDF invstigation it turns out it is palestiniane who did that.

you know this is like you are saying that after bin laden investgation of 9/11, he found out that aligns did 9/11 for propaganda reaon. how can the criminal investigate his own crime, by the criminal and the judge all at the same time, i tell you when, only under occupation.

I hope i answered all you questions Mr. Ross

Wael, thats because it was removed for some reason. Wael, why don't we drop all of this and continue our earlier conversation, about how we can live together in peace. I started by answering your point number two, the West Bank, and how to establish bounderies both sides can live in. Do you want to continue this line of conversation.

So you are not a Palestinain, do you care to state your origin?

Wael, regarding your points:
2. Fox has no affiliation to Israel and as so is not Israeli propaganda.
3. Not true at all.
4. Arafat was offered half of Jerusalem and 90% of the West Bank and all of Gaza, he responded with the Intifada, Arafat was a terrorist not a peace maker.
5.Israel is a democratic state recognized by every country accept a few Arab nations, as such is ruled by law, and any investigation done is according to the rule of law.